Keith Mann Jr. /// 576 /// 577

40 comments

  • Seth
    Seth TN - Tennessee
    Mighty convenient how they all went "mudding". How many times has a car been found with mud all over it after someone used that car to dispose of a body? And he told them that he had to leave soon because he had to "meet someone" after midnight, but nobody thought to ask him WHO? if he Keith was close enough to go mudding with these people in a car from the lot that isn't his; isn't he close enough to tell them the name of the person he is meeting? Rather than just saying I'm meeting "someone"...?

    Mighty convenient how they all went "mudding". How many times has a car been found with mud all over it after someone used that car to dispose of a body? And he told them that he had to leave soon because he had to "meet someone" after midnight, but nobody thought to ask him WHO? if he Keith was close enough to go mudding with these people in a car from the lot that isn't his; isn't he close enough to tell them the name of the person he is meeting? Rather than just saying I'm meeting "someone"...?

  • Michael
    Michael Melbourne, Australia
    Why 12.15a.m? Who finished work at midnight?

    Why 12.15a.m? Who finished work at midnight?

  • Daniel C
    Daniel C Fargo, ND
    I don't see a problem with Chris's girlfriend not being polygraphed. It's time and resources for the cops and an unpleasant experience for the person whose cooperation and good will they want to keep. In this instance, not enough bang for the buck. If Chris is a psychopath who fooled the cops and beat the test, there would likely be some bread crumbs in his life in the past 25 years to suggest that. If the current detective isn't seeing anything like that, it seems like a real long shot, and the mysterious meeting is where the focus should be. Interesting discussion of gambling with bookies. My dad was good friends with 2 bookies he would place small bets with on a regular basis. His guys never wanted cash up front for a bet, so it wasn't the "double or nothing" scenario Nic describes. My understanding is they didn't generally demand cash up front from any bettors. They would be careful not to let any bettor get too far in the hole because that made it more likely they wouldn't pay up at all. But the bookies assumed some collection risk that was made up for by the juice in the long run. (one guy did have tens of thousands never collected from a couple of high rolling clients. He tried to persuade my dad to act as muscle and lean on these guys, which my dad wisely declined) I kind of assumed all illegal bookmaking operations were like that (and of course the mob connected bookies would have access to muscle to coerce collection).

    I don't see a problem with Chris's girlfriend not being polygraphed. It's time and resources for the cops and an unpleasant experience for the person whose cooperation and good will they want to keep. In this instance, not enough bang for the buck. If Chris is a psychopath who fooled the cops and beat the test, there would likely be some bread crumbs in his life in the past 25 years to suggest that. If the current detective isn't seeing anything like that, it seems like a real long shot, and the mysterious meeting is where the focus should be.

    Interesting discussion of gambling with bookies. My dad was good friends with 2 bookies he would place small bets with on a regular basis. His guys never wanted cash up front for a bet, so it wasn't the "double or nothing" scenario Nic describes. My understanding is they didn't generally demand cash up front from any bettors. They would be careful not to let any bettor get too far in the hole because that made it more likely they wouldn't pay up at all. But the bookies assumed some collection risk that was made up for by the juice in the long run. (one guy did have tens of thousands never collected from a couple of high rolling clients. He tried to persuade my dad to act as muscle and lean on these guys, which my dad wisely declined) I kind of assumed all illegal bookmaking operations were like that (and of course the mob connected bookies would have access to muscle to coerce collection).

  • Richard Grant
    Richard Grant
    I thought it was instructive when Nic broke down the gambling protocols and the match up between when the games were played local time in W.F. TX, but my immediate thought towards the end of the 2nd episode when talking about the plausibility of meeting up with someone for a possible drug deal- would be the need to explain where a sudden influx of money came from. A conceivable excuse for Keith to have for why he might have been suddenly flush with cash could have been that he won it on a sports bet while the reality of the situation was he had made it in some other illicit way. I'm a bit uncomfortable typing out and speculating a person I know nothing about being involved in illegal activity- but nonetheless it was a thought that crossed my mind. It could have been that he was more comfortable saying he won a load of cash gambling rather than he's dealing drugs. Now to contradict myself- why would he have been killed if he was delivering drugs? I have no idea.

    I thought it was instructive when Nic broke down the gambling protocols and the match up between when the games were played local time in W.F. TX, but my immediate thought towards the end of the 2nd episode when talking about the plausibility of meeting up with someone for a possible drug deal- would be the need to explain where a sudden influx of money came from.
    A conceivable excuse for Keith to have for why he might have been suddenly flush with cash could have been that he won it on a sports bet while the reality of the situation was he had made it in some other illicit way.
    I'm a bit uncomfortable typing out and speculating a person I know nothing about being involved in illegal activity- but nonetheless it was a thought that crossed my mind. It could have been that he was more comfortable saying he won a load of cash gambling rather than he's dealing drugs.
    Now to contradict myself- why would he have been killed if he was delivering drugs? I have no idea.

  • chris
    chris fl
    I hear what Nic is saying about hastily clearing the Chris and Michelle scenario. They're still on the possible list in my mind. I kind of see where the investigators are coming from, though. If they ever bring charges, they still want to say they investigated the leads they had and ruled out persons X and Y for reasons A B and C. I suspect their apparent lack of continuing interest in these two has more to do with everything else fitting perfectly for another scenario, one for which they lack evidence. If it was Chris and Michelle, moving the Mustang to that church lot was a genius stroke that really put everybody off their scent. If we accept their stories (and I tend to), before dropping Keith at his apartment, the trio first washed off the muddied-up 4-Runner. It makes sense (you save a lot of effort if you wash off the mud while it's still wet, esp. the underside and tires), and Keith's messy from that. Home safely, he changes, maybe showers, heads out in the dealer's Mustang for this 12:15 AM meet-up at the church lot. The "I'm meeting someone at 12:15 AM" thing is bizarre. And, a little pedantic, no? Why not just say, "I told 'em I'd stop by a little after midnight" or something approximate like that for this time of day. If it's true, I'm guessing Keith set the time since he had already made plans with Chris and Michelle, and I'm guessing when he planned his evening he'd calculated he'd be back by midnight and need 15 minutes to clean up and drive over to the lot. And, to him, whatever this is is necessary but kind of perfunctory, maybe something he put off and slots in at the end of the night. Carrie's arriving in town and moving in later that same day seems a forcing function. All this to say: It sounds like a break-up gone wrong in that church lot. Something where he's already arm's length, and maybe the other person isn't letting go. I'd want to ask the parents and neighbors about people he'd hang out with near the church when he lived with Dad and step-Mom. I'd also ask about the potential for any love interests he'd be intent on keeping secret -- possibly even relationships with a person (male or female) they'd never thought of in that light. High school close buddies / sweethearts are also likely interesting to the investigation. Going way out on a limb here… In break-ups, there's often an appointment where the two parties repatriate each other's personal items that'd somehow migrated. I read on https://themissingmannproject.com/ by a Mann family member that the Mustang's trunk was found "partially open." That got me thinking this way: Maybe some housecleaning was in order -- both relationship- and apartment-wise. Whether the meet was in the parking lot or a nearby home, maybe Keith removes something from the trunk and expects to be carrying something back to the Mustang later. So, he pops the trunk, retrieves something, leaves it slightly open so, when he returns, he can nudge it open with an elbow, pop in a parcel he's taking home, shut it. I was interested in the then-new pastor of the church. One of the biggest challenges for growing churches is Sunday parking. They spend a small fortune on parking the flock uses just a few hours each week. Making sure the church's parking was available to the parishioners might've been the pastor's concern. Or, maybe the pastor was worried about reports of suspicious activity? Or, had somebody complained that Keith was meeting somebody out there? He's cash-poor that night -- so, even a single-use drug buy or set-up (robbery) doesn't fit. Carrie arriving that day and the seeming mismatch (he seems almost business-like, and the counterparty disappears him) point to more of a love-rage motive. He's handsome, athletic, 20 yo, brimming with life as he's putting together a new life for himself. So, an old flame from high school with whom he'd re-connected after quitting college? Or, somebody else with whom he had a sexual relationship living near his Dad and step-Mom? Maybe somebody not his age (younger or older), perhaps even married? That fits with putting the meet-up back in the old neighborhood, not having this person over to his new place, and this person being outside his new circle of friends. It seems most likely to me Keith drove the Mustang to the church lot. The car seat positioning... Lots of fingers in the pie by then. Keith was pretty short at 5'6" -- so, most folks getting in to try starting / preparing the vehicle for towing back to the dealership would need to move the seat. Sounded like they had a time of it -- Nic said "several hours." The gambling angle … not much to go on there. The whole "could pay our rent for a few months" could be dropping $50 in a pool with 30 other guys. Even if he was gambling big, though, it's doubtful a bookie in 1997 Wichita Falls TX pulls a pro hit that stumps veteran dicks for decades.

    I hear what Nic is saying about hastily clearing the Chris and Michelle scenario. They're still on the possible list in my mind. I kind of see where the investigators are coming from, though. If they ever bring charges, they still want to say they investigated the leads they had and ruled out persons X and Y for reasons A B and C. I suspect their apparent lack of continuing interest in these two has more to do with everything else fitting perfectly for another scenario, one for which they lack evidence. If it was Chris and Michelle, moving the Mustang to that church lot was a genius stroke that really put everybody off their scent.

    If we accept their stories (and I tend to), before dropping Keith at his apartment, the trio first washed off the muddied-up 4-Runner. It makes sense (you save a lot of effort if you wash off the mud while it's still wet, esp. the underside and tires), and Keith's messy from that. Home safely, he changes, maybe showers, heads out in the dealer's Mustang for this 12:15 AM meet-up at the church lot.

    The "I'm meeting someone at 12:15 AM" thing is bizarre. And, a little pedantic, no? Why not just say, "I told 'em I'd stop by a little after midnight" or something approximate like that for this time of day. If it's true, I'm guessing Keith set the time since he had already made plans with Chris and Michelle, and I'm guessing when he planned his evening he'd calculated he'd be back by midnight and need 15 minutes to clean up and drive over to the lot. And, to him, whatever this is is necessary but kind of perfunctory, maybe something he put off and slots in at the end of the night. Carrie's arriving in town and moving in later that same day seems a forcing function.

    All this to say: It sounds like a break-up gone wrong in that church lot. Something where he's already arm's length, and maybe the other person isn't letting go. I'd want to ask the parents and neighbors about people he'd hang out with near the church when he lived with Dad and step-Mom. I'd also ask about the potential for any love interests he'd be intent on keeping secret -- possibly even relationships with a person (male or female) they'd never thought of in that light. High school close buddies / sweethearts are also likely interesting to the investigation.

    Going way out on a limb here… In break-ups, there's often an appointment where the two parties repatriate each other's personal items that'd somehow migrated. I read on https://themissingmannproject.com/ by a Mann family member that the Mustang's trunk was found "partially open." That got me thinking this way: Maybe some housecleaning was in order -- both relationship- and apartment-wise. Whether the meet was in the parking lot or a nearby home, maybe Keith removes something from the trunk and expects to be carrying something back to the Mustang later. So, he pops the trunk, retrieves something, leaves it slightly open so, when he returns, he can nudge it open with an elbow, pop in a parcel he's taking home, shut it.

    I was interested in the then-new pastor of the church. One of the biggest challenges for growing churches is Sunday parking. They spend a small fortune on parking the flock uses just a few hours each week. Making sure the church's parking was available to the parishioners might've been the pastor's concern. Or, maybe the pastor was worried about reports of suspicious activity? Or, had somebody complained that Keith was meeting somebody out there?

    He's cash-poor that night -- so, even a single-use drug buy or set-up (robbery) doesn't fit. Carrie arriving that day and the seeming mismatch (he seems almost business-like, and the counterparty disappears him) point to more of a love-rage motive. He's handsome, athletic, 20 yo, brimming with life as he's putting together a new life for himself. So, an old flame from high school with whom he'd re-connected after quitting college? Or, somebody else with whom he had a sexual relationship living near his Dad and step-Mom? Maybe somebody not his age (younger or older), perhaps even married? That fits with putting the meet-up back in the old neighborhood, not having this person over to his new place, and this person being outside his new circle of friends.

    It seems most likely to me Keith drove the Mustang to the church lot. The car seat positioning... Lots of fingers in the pie by then. Keith was pretty short at 5'6" -- so, most folks getting in to try starting / preparing the vehicle for towing back to the dealership would need to move the seat. Sounded like they had a time of it -- Nic said "several hours."

    The gambling angle … not much to go on there. The whole "could pay our rent for a few months" could be dropping $50 in a pool with 30 other guys. Even if he was gambling big, though, it's doubtful a bookie in 1997 Wichita Falls TX pulls a pro hit that stumps veteran dicks for decades.

  • Tara L
    Tara L Dallas
    Were the neighbors interviewed? Who were the neighbors? Where was the girlfriend from 11:30am-6am?? The place the guys mention they went mudding at does not match up. It’s behind the stadium and eventually the road ends. It’s maybe .5 miles from lots of lights. I feel like he went and met up for an after party and something happened. Chris and Michelle must’ve given a list of people he could’ve went with. Were they interviewed? Did he smoke pot? Was he having a fling with a chick? I can promise you that he didn’t walk away. And whoever hid the body just got lucky. I’m sure they have been expecting a knock at the door! I even think this could be solved without a body if they put the right pressure on the right group of people. Seems like they need to shake the tree a little harder!!

    Were the neighbors interviewed? Who were the neighbors? Where was the girlfriend from 11:30am-6am??
    The place the guys mention they went mudding at does not match up. It’s behind the stadium and eventually the road ends. It’s maybe .5 miles from lots of lights.
    I feel like he went and met up for an after party and something happened. Chris and Michelle must’ve given a list of people he could’ve went with. Were they interviewed?
    Did he smoke pot? Was he having a fling with a chick? I can promise you that he didn’t walk away. And whoever hid the body just got lucky. I’m sure they have been expecting a knock at the door!
    I even think this could be solved without a body if they put the right pressure on the right group of people. Seems like they need to shake the tree a little harder!!

  • Pamela
    Pamela MI
    I'm curious about the people who lived in his apartment before him. Could there have been a case of mistaken identity that lead to a bad event?

    I'm curious about the people who lived in his apartment before him. Could there have been a case of mistaken identity that lead to a bad event?

  • A GHI Freak
    A GHI Freak WF, TX
    Interested in communicating. Just not here. How do you do that?

    Interested in communicating. Just not here. How do you do that?

  • Tracy
    Tracy MA
    Nic props on your breakdown on the gambling scenario, I have to agree that it makes little sense. (This kind of thing is what Lebron James and Oprah and I agree sets this podcast apart :D) It's maddening to think that Keith's disappearance may actually be unsolved because of the confluence of coincidence: new-ish job; new car; new parking scenario; new digs. In other words hard to do victimology or geography. Like you guys and the others who have commented here, I don't want to implicate the last-to-see-him friends but boy were my eyes rolling out of my head when I heard "he said he was going to meet this guy..." just kind of classic. And how long was he home? I'd have put the unopened beer in the fridge right away. Was someone waiting for him or was it staged? (Or was he just a lazy-ish fast-drinking bloke?) My money's on something monetary having to do with the arrival of the fiancee; that whole timeline is too coincidental, and even if gambling's off the table, it sounds like he had monetary concerns in general. I think he might have extended himself financially and was trying to resolve something before she arrived. I wish we knew more about the extent of his friendship with Chris. Did he only know him from the car dealership or were they friends before? I may have missed it but it seems like this isn't mentioned. I say this less to imply that I suspect Chris than that I just want to rule him out once and for all. Also the rumors about the shadiness of the car dealership milieu in general--I would want to know more about that. Anyway kudos on yet another deep dive. And for putting another victim on our radar. This seems so solvable if like you said, someone was told something...

    Nic props on your breakdown on the gambling scenario, I have to agree that it makes little sense. (This kind of thing is what Lebron James and Oprah and I agree sets this podcast apart biggrin)

    It's maddening to think that Keith's disappearance may actually be unsolved because of the confluence of coincidence: new-ish job; new car; new parking scenario; new digs. In other words hard to do victimology or geography. Like you guys and the others who have commented here, I don't want to implicate the last-to-see-him friends but boy were my eyes rolling out of my head when I heard "he said he was going to meet this guy..." just kind of classic. And how long was he home? I'd have put the unopened beer in the fridge right away. Was someone waiting for him or was it staged? (Or was he just a lazy-ish fast-drinking bloke?)

    My money's on something monetary having to do with the arrival of the fiancee; that whole timeline is too coincidental, and even if gambling's off the table, it sounds like he had monetary concerns in general. I think he might have extended himself financially and was trying to resolve something before she arrived. I wish we knew more about the extent of his friendship with Chris. Did he only know him from the car dealership or were they friends before? I may have missed it but it seems like this isn't mentioned. I say this less to imply that I suspect Chris than that I just want to rule him out once and for all. Also the rumors about the shadiness of the car dealership milieu in general--I would want to know more about that.

    Anyway kudos on yet another deep dive. And for putting another victim on our radar. This seems so solvable if like you said, someone was told something...

  • Tracy
    Tracy MA
    @Pamela your question is good, but then what about his car being parked in his old standby spot in the church lot by his dad's house (and not by Keith's own residence)? I'm thinking Keith either elected to bring his car there or whomever is responsible for his disappearance left it there on purpose. In a small town it could be a coincidence but I think it's doubtful.

    @Pamela your question is good, but then what about his car being parked in his old standby spot in the church lot by his dad's house (and not by Keith's own residence)? I'm thinking Keith either elected to bring his car there or whomever is responsible for his disappearance left it there on purpose. In a small town it could be a coincidence but I think it's doubtful.

  • Seth
    Seth TN - Tennessee
    Another thing. Most people go mudding during the DAY, not at night. Seems to me that Chris and Michelle knew there might be video of some kind or a record of them going to a car wash late at night to wash off the car, thus the "well we went mudding and wanted to clean the car before we returned it". An excuse to "why the hell were you at a car wash so late at night?". The whole taking a car off a lot to go late night mudding sounds very suspect to me. I don't care if Chris or Michelle passed a polygraph or not; so did Gary Ridgeway (multiple times). How many times has a case taken an extra 10 to 30 years to solve simply because someone passed a polygraph and then were initially ruled out as a suspect? It has happened numerous, numerous times...

    Another thing. Most people go mudding during the DAY, not at night. Seems to me that Chris and Michelle knew there might be video of some kind or a record of them going to a car wash late at night to wash off the car, thus the "well we went mudding and wanted to clean the car before we returned it". An excuse to "why the hell were you at a car wash so late at night?". The whole taking a car off a lot to go late night mudding sounds very suspect to me. I don't care if Chris or Michelle passed a polygraph or not; so did Gary Ridgeway (multiple times). How many times has a case taken an extra 10 to 30 years to solve simply because someone passed a polygraph and then were initially ruled out as a suspect? It has happened numerous, numerous times...

  • Seth
    Seth TN - Tennessee
    He could have had a 2 game parlay involving the two underdogs on the moneyline (not the spread). In that case, his winnings could have been +800 or higher (8 to 1). For example, this Saturday, the Grizzlies are +230 on the moneyline and the Celtics are +126, but if you parlay them (both have to win for you to win your bet) , the payout is nearly 7/1. (+650). That means if you put $300 on the Grizz and the Celtics and they BOTH win, you win $1,950, plus the $300 you wagered; so $1250 total. So I'm curious...were the Jazz and the Hawks underdogs that Saturday? And did they both WIN????

    He could have had a 2 game parlay involving the two underdogs on the moneyline (not the spread). In that case, his winnings could have been +800 or higher (8 to 1). For example, this Saturday, the Grizzlies are +230 on the moneyline and the Celtics are +126, but if you parlay them (both have to win for you to win your bet) , the payout is nearly 7/1. (+650). That means if you put $300 on the Grizz and the Celtics and they BOTH win, you win $1,950, plus the $300 you wagered; so $1250 total. So I'm curious...were the Jazz and the Hawks underdogs that Saturday? And did they both WIN????

  • Seth
    Seth TN - Tennessee
    The Utah Jazz were a 7 to 1 preseason/playoff odds to win the NBA finals and 5 to 1 odds to win the Western Conference in 97'. When Keith made that call to his girlfriend, the Utah Jazz had just went up 3 to 1 on the Rockets in the best of 7 series. The Jazz were one game of way from winning the Western Conference and making the finals. And they did eventually make the finals. Perhaps he had a large future bet on Utah to win it all or even win the Western Conference?

    The Utah Jazz were a 7 to 1 preseason/playoff odds to win the NBA finals and 5 to 1 odds to win the Western Conference in 97'. When Keith made that call to his girlfriend, the Utah Jazz had just went up 3 to 1 on the Rockets in the best of 7 series. The Jazz were one game of way from winning the Western Conference and making the finals. And they did eventually make the finals. Perhaps he had a large future bet on Utah to win it all or even win the Western Conference?

  • Lois
    Lois VA
    Very sad story. I spent time in Texas in my mid 20s, in the mid-late 1990s, and listening to all these true crime podcasts, am I lucky to be alive? Who knows, but in my 20s, I had no fear and if someone I knew told me to meet them at midnight to go to the dancin' rodeo or get tacos I would have been like, cool! I lived alone and went most places alone all hours of the day and night. People who knew me saw me when I was at work and on campus for classes, but otherwise, if I had met with foul play outside of those times, noone would ever know. I lived near downtown San Antonio, and I often went to the movies or shopping alone after midnight in the far suburbs just for fun, that's just an example. I was never interested in drugs but a lot of people I knew from campus and outside campus were, so crossing paths with nepharous characters who could do a person in, especially on the weekend at parties, was a regular thing. All that to say that being a youth in a place like Texas, where angels and devils hang out in the same spaces 24/7, there really is no telling what could happen to an unsuspecting youth in the middle of the night, esp. if the youth has no criminal record and no record of bad behavior to serve as breadcrumbs for an investigation. I think Keith is the one who parked the car in the church parking lot because it was a closer rendezvous point for whoever he met with and knowing that the pastor didn't want him to park there, he probably fully intended to be out of there before the sun came up. Beyond that, there's no telling what happened.

    Very sad story. I spent time in Texas in my mid 20s, in the mid-late 1990s, and listening to all these true crime podcasts, am I lucky to be alive? Who knows, but in my 20s, I had no fear and if someone I knew told me to meet them at midnight to go to the dancin' rodeo or get tacos I would have been like, cool! I lived alone and went most places alone all hours of the day and night. People who knew me saw me when I was at work and on campus for classes, but otherwise, if I had met with foul play outside of those times, noone would ever know. I lived near downtown San Antonio, and I often went to the movies or shopping alone after midnight in the far suburbs just for fun, that's just an example. I was never interested in drugs but a lot of people I knew from campus and outside campus were, so crossing paths with nepharous characters who could do a person in, especially on the weekend at parties, was a regular thing. All that to say that being a youth in a place like Texas, where angels and devils hang out in the same spaces 24/7, there really is no telling what could happen to an unsuspecting youth in the middle of the night, esp. if the youth has no criminal record and no record of bad behavior to serve as breadcrumbs for an investigation.

    I think Keith is the one who parked the car in the church parking lot because it was a closer rendezvous point for whoever he met with and knowing that the pastor didn't want him to park there, he probably fully intended to be out of there before the sun came up.

    Beyond that, there's no telling what happened.

  • Suzanne
    Suzanne PA
    Chris and Michelle seem awfully suspicious to me, too, but what's the motive?

    Chris and Michelle seem awfully suspicious to me, too, but what's the motive?

  • Danielle
    Danielle Maine
    I know DNA was very different then but what about DNA testing on the open beer found in his house or fingerprints? I didn't hear that mentioned in the podcast I may have missed it . If tested to be Chris or Michelle that would put them in the house when they said they never went in. I can't help but lean towards them being more involved then they are saying.

    I know DNA was very different then but what about DNA testing on the open beer found in his house or fingerprints? I didn't hear that mentioned in the podcast I may have missed it . If tested to be Chris or Michelle that would put them in the house when they said they never went in. I can't help but lean towards them being more involved then they are saying.

  • SK
    SK Midland, TX
    Mr. Kitchens , look into mr.Kitchens

    Mr. Kitchens , look into mr.Kitchens

  • Thanks for the interesting case. On the surface, applying Occam's Razor seems right but that doesn't seem to work, hence, it's been 25 years. It seems like we have to accept a few assumptions to find the answer which muddies the water and makes it hard to draw up charges. Maybe I missed it, but I was expecting some kind of rumor of two timing or relationship issues with the fiancé. Was he meeting a second girlfriend and her boyfriend showed up? Doesn't sound likely, but easily plausible as the gambling issue. Money and jealousy.

    Thanks for the interesting case. On the surface, applying Occam's Razor seems right but that doesn't seem to work, hence, it's been 25 years. It seems like we have to accept a few assumptions to find the answer which muddies the water and makes it hard to draw up charges.

    Maybe I missed it, but I was expecting some kind of rumor of two timing or relationship issues with the fiancé. Was he meeting a second girlfriend and her boyfriend showed up? Doesn't sound likely, but easily plausible as the gambling issue. Money and jealousy.

  • Aaron
    Aaron Saint Louis
    The cold case detective mentioned that the trio 'stopped by a party briefly' in episode 2. Perhaps that party is where Keith made the arrangements to meet whomever he was to meet?

    The cold case detective mentioned that the trio 'stopped by a party briefly' in episode 2. Perhaps that party is where Keith made the arrangements to meet whomever he was to meet?

  • JG
    JG Wichita Falls, Tx
    I appreciate all that you have thought through. My husband was good friends with Keith in high school and played baseball with him. This story still hurts him 25 years later. I would love to see it solved for all the people who cared for him!

    I appreciate all that you have thought through. My husband was good friends with Keith in high school and played baseball with him. This story still hurts him 25 years later. I would love to see it solved for all the people who cared for him!

  • Dr KW
    Dr KW San Francisco
    Man a red mustang would be the worst car to be driving a whole lot of drugs around in, just saying. I'm willing to bet he parked the car there to meet up with a high school friend. Timing of him getting engaged/ moving in with his gf seems almost too close to be a coincidence. Maybe he goes to meet with an ex to get closure and move on and the ex's friends grab him and drive off. Or maybe the pastor killed him for parking in the lot hahaha

    Man a red mustang would be the worst car to be driving a whole lot of drugs around in, just saying.

    I'm willing to bet he parked the car there to meet up with a high school friend. Timing of him getting engaged/ moving in with his gf seems almost too close to be a coincidence. Maybe he goes to meet with an ex to get closure and move on and the ex's friends grab him and drive off.

    Or maybe the pastor killed him for parking in the lot hahaha

  • Anthony S
    Anthony S
    I wouldn’t totally throw out the gambling angle. I agree with Nic said but you really wouldn’t know without the whole set up. There are some variables in play depending the illegal books structure. I started messing with gambling around 2000 but I didn’t get my own account until 2002-2003. I know we had a phone number to call that would connect off shore you tell them the account and password and then ask them for the line on any game you want. Maybe it’s a little different over here because most illegal books are backed by “wise guys” but very rarely are you meeting “the head guy or the house”. I knew the head guy personally and he put me on a guys sheet which is basically a runner who collects for the house he may be in charge of 10-15 accounts and he gets a % for doing the collecting and turning it in. When I “signed up” the head guy told me listen if you ever bite off more than you can chew just let me know and we will work it out. You were given a line of credit so I didn’t have to hand the runner a $100 if I wanted to bet $100 on a game. Call in and place that bet. One week about 6 months in I lost $1000. I didn’t have it but I had just sold my car and was waiting for the check to clear so I would have had it within a week. Well the runner who was handling my account who I also knew personally before ever signing up wasn’t having it. He wanted it now not on a week. I said call the head guy he will tell you it’s ok. The runner was like well I ain’t get paid until you turn it in and I’m not waiting. I called the head guy explained the situation and he said everything was fine. I forgot to mention I bowled in a league with the head guy so I saw him every week and he still put me on a sheet and was willing to pay someone to collect rather than deal directly with me. My point is $1000-$1500 may not be a big number in the grand scheme of things to the house but if there is a middle man involved who knows. You can’t get money from a dead man but what if he just meant to scare him and the gun was loaded or the beating went to far. If that middle man has to collect from 10-15 people that he’s in charge of and people aren’t paying on time maybe sending a message to the other guys by taking care of the guy with a little debt scares the rest of the sheet. I know Nic laid out the timeline of the playoff games and all but unless we have the bookie speak how can we know he only bet on bball games. A lot of gamblers are liars or stretch the truth or omit things so he could have been playing baseball games. Back then Action points (BBall and football) and reverses were common plays like parlays today so with one of those wagers your initial bet could tie in multiple games. So you could have bet Saturday and Sundays BBall games into one bet. So maybe that’s why he was saying he can pay the rent he already hit Saturdays games but was waiting on later action maybe in a baseball game. Most likely Nic is on point and it’s wasn’t gambling related cuz you a dead guy can’t pay but I wouldn’t totally dismiss it. Quick note on the car and drug end I’ve been in that business for over 20 years now and I’ve heard stories of cars being loaded up with drugs but those are usually cars that the dealer is sending to auction. You are sending cars by a big rig transport truck to auctions in Chicago, Florida, Pa and have connections there just load them up. Back then most auctions had 24/7 access so if you tell your connection on the other side when the cars are suppose to land they can go there middle of the night unload the stuff and no one ever knew a thing not even the guy shipping the cars for you. Just a little weird though that if it was drug related these guys didn’t choose a car that they know wouldn’t be given out as a demo car. Usually you have strict wholesale cars that are only meant for auction and those are the cars they would choose to load them up with.

    I wouldn’t totally throw out the gambling angle. I agree with Nic said but you really wouldn’t know without the whole set up. There are some variables in play depending the illegal books structure. I started messing with gambling around 2000 but I didn’t get my own account until 2002-2003. I know we had a phone number to call that would connect off shore you tell them the account and password and then ask them for the line on any game you want. Maybe it’s a little different over here because most illegal books are backed by “wise guys” but very rarely are you meeting “the head guy or the house”. I knew the head guy personally and he put me on a guys sheet which is basically a runner who collects for the house he may be in charge of 10-15 accounts and he gets a % for doing the collecting and turning it in. When I “signed up” the head guy told me listen if you ever bite off more than you can chew just let me know and we will work it out. You were given a line of credit so I didn’t have to hand the runner a $100 if I wanted to bet $100 on a game. Call in and place that bet. One week about 6 months in I lost $1000. I didn’t have it but I had just sold my car and was waiting for the check to clear so I would have had it within a week. Well the runner who was handling my account who I also knew personally before ever signing up wasn’t having it. He wanted it now not on a week. I said call the head guy he will tell you it’s ok. The runner was like well I ain’t get paid until you turn it in and I’m not waiting. I called the head guy explained the situation and he said everything was fine. I forgot to mention I bowled in a league with the head guy so I saw him every week and he still put me on a sheet and was willing to pay someone to collect rather than deal directly with me. My point is $1000-$1500 may not be a big number in the grand scheme of things to the house but if there is a middle man involved who knows. You can’t get money from a dead man but what if he just meant to scare him and the gun was loaded or the beating went to far. If that middle man has to collect from 10-15 people that he’s in charge of and people aren’t paying on time maybe sending a message to the other guys by taking care of the guy with a little debt scares the rest of the sheet.

    I know Nic laid out the timeline of the playoff games and all but unless we have the bookie speak how can we know he only bet on bball games. A lot of gamblers are liars or stretch the truth or omit things so he could have been playing baseball games. Back then Action points (BBall and football) and reverses were common plays like parlays today so with one of those wagers your initial bet could tie in multiple games. So you could have bet Saturday and Sundays BBall games into one bet. So maybe that’s why he was saying he can pay the rent he already hit Saturdays games but was waiting on later action maybe in a baseball game. Most likely Nic is on point and it’s wasn’t gambling related cuz you a dead guy can’t pay but I wouldn’t totally dismiss it.

    Quick note on the car and drug end I’ve been in that business for over 20 years now and I’ve heard stories of cars being loaded up with drugs but those are usually cars that the dealer is sending to auction. You are sending cars by a big rig transport truck to auctions in Chicago, Florida, Pa and have connections there just load them up. Back then most auctions had 24/7 access so if you tell your connection on the other side when the cars are suppose to land they can go there middle of the night unload the stuff and no one ever knew a thing not even the guy shipping the cars for you. Just a little weird though that if it was drug related these guys didn’t choose a car that they know wouldn’t be given out as a demo car. Usually you have strict wholesale cars that are only meant for auction and those are the cars they would choose to load them up with.

  • Paige
    Paige Brooklyn
    Not that anyone wants my two cents... but Keith had just moved into the new apartment less than a month before his disappearance. What if he forgot to tell whoever he was meeting that he had moved? I envision him sitting in his new apartment at 12:15am, sipping one of the three beers, when he realizes that this person doesn't have his new address and thinks they're meeting at his last address - his parents' house. Keith rushes out of the apartment, leaving the beers out in his haste, locks the door, and drives the Mustang the couple miles to his parents' house. Not wanting to wake them, and knowing that the church won't know if he parks there briefly in the middle of the night, he parks in his regular spot in the church lot to meet this person. What happens next is a mystery...

    Not that anyone wants my two cents... but Keith had just moved into the new apartment less than a month before his disappearance. What if he forgot to tell whoever he was meeting that he had moved? I envision him sitting in his new apartment at 12:15am, sipping one of the three beers, when he realizes that this person doesn't have his new address and thinks they're meeting at his last address - his parents' house. Keith rushes out of the apartment, leaving the beers out in his haste, locks the door, and drives the Mustang the couple miles to his parents' house. Not wanting to wake them, and knowing that the church won't know if he parks there briefly in the middle of the night, he parks in his regular spot in the church lot to meet this person. What happens next is a mystery...

  • True Crime Garage
    True Crime Garage
    @ Freak - you can email me. My email is on the contact page. - Nic

    @ Freak - you can email me. My email is on the contact page. - Nic

  • True Crime Garage
    True Crime Garage
    @ Seth - Thank you for the additional info. On that Saturday the Jazz beat the Lakers and the Bulls beat the Hawks. I'm guessing that Jazz and Bulls would have been favored. I get what you are saying with the different betting more exotic options but keep in mind he would have been wagering through a bookie, probably low level too. It's possible but I've never wagered through a "guy" that takes Money Line bets. If so I would have made a bunch of money. Cheers mate! Nic

    @ Seth - Thank you for the additional info. On that Saturday the Jazz beat the Lakers and the Bulls beat the Hawks. I'm guessing that Jazz and Bulls would have been favored. I get what you are saying with the different betting more exotic options but keep in mind he would have been wagering through a bookie, probably low level too. It's possible but I've never wagered through a "guy" that takes Money Line bets. If so I would have made a bunch of money.
    Cheers mate! Nic

  • James
    James TX
    The mud and cleaning the car is really bothering me. From my understanding, they washed the car before taking Keith home. And his pants were found with mud on them. So by this story, they cleaned this borrowed car and then Keith got back into the car with muddy pants. That makes no sense to me at all and I can't quite reconcile it in my mind. I dont know what that means exactly, but all of it is very suspicious. Are Chris and Michelle still together? I can't imagine that they would do something and then keep it secret over the years even after breaking up. I mean, they were only boyfriend/girlfriend, right? Looking away from them, the first thing that comes to mind is that he was meeting a woman. Possibly a married woman? I'd be looking into people he worked with. I know the police would have done that though. Hope they find something soon. This case was very interesting and I hope the parents are able to get Keith back.

    The mud and cleaning the car is really bothering me. From my understanding, they washed the car before taking Keith home. And his pants were found with mud on them.

    So by this story, they cleaned this borrowed car and then Keith got back into the car with muddy pants. That makes no sense to me at all and I can't quite reconcile it in my mind.

    I dont know what that means exactly, but all of it is very suspicious. Are Chris and Michelle still together? I can't imagine that they would do something and then keep it secret over the years even after breaking up. I mean, they were only boyfriend/girlfriend, right?

    Looking away from them, the first thing that comes to mind is that he was meeting a woman. Possibly a married woman? I'd be looking into people he worked with. I know the police would have done that though.

    Hope they find something soon. This case was very interesting and I hope the parents are able to get Keith back.

  • Mama G
    Mama G Virginia
    I was curious… was there any fingerprinting in/on the car? In the apartment? I wondered what the police did at the time or since they thought he was just gone by choice they didn’t bother? Was there any forensics done inside the car beyond “it looked like it had just been cleaned”?

    I was curious… was there any fingerprinting in/on the car? In the apartment? I wondered what the police did at the time or since they thought he was just gone by choice they didn’t bother? Was there any forensics done inside the car beyond “it looked like it had just been cleaned”?

  • Kelli
    Kelli Arkansas
    Great episodes! This is an interesting case. I have a couple of thoughts: 1) Some of these details are based on Keith telling the truth. He sounds like a great kid, but people lie. Especially when they feel like they are in trouble. I work in sales and can tell you that when you are on a role and making big commissions, it’s almost a high of sorts. He’s young and impressionable, and if the rumors about the dealership are true, then the atmosphere of buzzing sales, money, and chasing that sales high could have made him susceptible to others with worse intentions and he just wanted to fit in. This brings me to thought number two. 2) What is Keith was lying about the betting? What if the “betting” Was Keith’s way of covering up that he had gotten in over his head? 12:15 AM would not be an unusual time to meet someone for a drug deal or movement. What if he were asked by one of his coworkers to do this one thing? And being young and naive he thought it would help him fit in at his new job and be a quick way to make some money. But he knew he couldn’t say who he was meeting or what it was really about. So betting was a cover. 3) Last thought. What if Keith chose the meeting spot because it was in his comfort zone? This way he felt as if he had an element of control, and that it was not near his home But close enough to the safety of his parents house if something were to go wrong. I know this is a lot of speculation but the type of person more people deal drugs more traffic them Have the means, well, and motive for this crime. Maybe this was a drug board deal gone wrong maybe Keith didn’t even know who he was meeting? He just set a meeting spot. This leaves the question on how much Chris really knows also. I don’t think they had anything to do with his disappearance, but he probably knows more and is scared. Again, I understand this all falls apart if The rumors about the dealership or not true. Thank you for all you guys do!!

    Great episodes! This is an interesting case. I have a couple of thoughts:
    1) Some of these details are based on Keith telling the truth. He sounds like a great kid, but people lie. Especially when they feel like they are in trouble. I work in sales and can tell you that when you are on a role and making big commissions, it’s almost a high of sorts. He’s young and impressionable, and if the rumors about the dealership are true, then the atmosphere of buzzing sales, money, and chasing that sales high could have made him susceptible to others with worse intentions and he just wanted to fit in. This brings me to thought number two.
    2) What is Keith was lying about the betting? What if the “betting” Was Keith’s way of covering up that he had gotten in over his head? 12:15 AM would not be an unusual time to meet someone for a drug deal or movement. What if he were asked by one of his coworkers to do this one thing? And being young and naive he thought it would help him fit in at his new job and be a quick way to make some money. But he knew he couldn’t say who he was meeting or what it was really about. So betting was a cover.
    3) Last thought. What if Keith chose the meeting spot because it was in his comfort zone? This way he felt as if he had an element of control, and that it was not near his home But close enough to the safety of his parents house if something were to go wrong.
    I know this is a lot of speculation but the type of person more people deal drugs more traffic them Have the means, well, and motive for this crime. Maybe this was a drug board deal gone wrong maybe Keith didn’t even know who he was meeting? He just set a meeting spot. This leaves the question on how much Chris really knows also. I don’t think they had anything to do with his disappearance, but he probably knows more and is scared.
    Again, I understand this all falls apart if The rumors about the dealership or not true.
    Thank you for all you guys do!!

  • Heather
    Heather WA
    The detective interview mentions a party/parties that Chris, Michelle and Keith went to during the evening prior to Keith being dropped off at his apartment. The party/parties need to be looked into to see if Keith may have made some kind of connection that is the 'meeting' he planned on later that night.

    The detective interview mentions a party/parties that Chris, Michelle and Keith went to during the evening prior to Keith being dropped off at his apartment. The party/parties need to be looked into to see if Keith may have made some kind of connection that is the 'meeting' he planned on later that night.

  • Luciana S
    Luciana S
    I had not heard of this case before, thanks for the episodes guys.

    I had not heard of this case before, thanks for the episodes guys.

  • Mike
    Mike Ohio
    @ Seth. The parlay bet was actually what I wanted to talk about. He could have bet an insignificant amount of money on a parlay of multiple teams maybe not just two and won the amount of money he was referencing. Which in my eyes would render the gambling theory not very good.

    @ Seth. The parlay bet was actually what I wanted to talk about. He could have bet an insignificant amount of money on a parlay of multiple teams maybe not just two and won the amount of money he was referencing. Which in my eyes would render the gambling theory not very good.

  • Linda
    Linda Cortland, OH
    Please tell Mr. Mann, HE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE, he shouldn't feel guilty, how could he know something would happen to his son?

    Please tell Mr. Mann, HE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE, he shouldn't feel guilty, how could he know something would happen to his son?

  • Tony
    Tony Cape Cod
    Ok ... quick observation on bookies. Assuming your description of the "juice" is correct, someone made a terrible choice in designing the bookie/gambler economy. If losers are charged the juice, the risk is introduced that the bettor will not have the funds needed. This is bad for all parties involved. Why aren't the winning bettors the ones charged the "juice"? The funds can simply be subtracted from the payout the bookie offers the winner. They are assuredly available. Safer and more sustainable for all involved. Why do I have to think of EVERYTHING?!

    Ok ... quick observation on bookies.

    Assuming your description of the "juice" is correct, someone made a terrible choice in designing the bookie/gambler economy. If losers are charged the juice, the risk is introduced that the bettor will not have the funds needed. This is bad for all parties involved.

    Why aren't the winning bettors the ones charged the "juice"? The funds can simply be subtracted from the payout the bookie offers the winner. They are assuredly available. Safer and more sustainable for all involved.

    Why do I have to think of EVERYTHING?!

  • Kelly
    Kelly IL
    I think the reason Keith had no money is because he just moved into that apartment. He probably had to pay a security deposit plus the rent for April and May and the paychecks from his new job hadn't allowed him to catch up yet. I'm also assuming his fiance wasn't paying for the apartment yet since she wasn't fully moved in and might not be working yet if she just graduated.

    I think the reason Keith had no money is because he just moved into that apartment. He probably had to pay a security deposit plus the rent for April and May and the paychecks from his new job hadn't allowed him to catch up yet. I'm also assuming his fiance wasn't paying for the apartment yet since she wasn't fully moved in and might not be working yet if she just graduated.

  • True Crime Garage
    True Crime Garage
    @ Mama G - fingerprinting on the car and at the apartment were not done. Too many people accessed both before police got thorough on this. Thanks Nic

    @ Mama G - fingerprinting on the car and at the apartment were not done. Too many people accessed both before police got thorough on this.
    Thanks Nic

  • True Crime Garage
    True Crime Garage
    @ Tony - my description of the juice is accurate. I have also never heard of, heard rumor of or personally witnessed anyone ever to be rubbed out, harmed or threatened at this level of gambling. It doesn't mean that it does not happen but I would believe it to be extremely rare. You would have to understand sports betting, to grasp why the system is set up that way. The bookie needs to make something and many times he is a middle man. The simplest answer is this - like all forms of gambling the system is set up for the person making the wager to lose. There are FAR more losers than winners - it is not close to a 50/50 system. So with that in mind obviously the bookie wants to collect on the losing wagers as there are far more. The other thing too is they want for you to be "in to them." Meaning in debt to them so you chase it. Chase it to create potentially more losses. Most of the time these are small wagers. $25 minimum / $100 max for a front. Also most won't let you in on the action without paying your wager in advance unless you have built up a good rapport. - No more wagers please, Nic ;-)

    @ Tony - my description of the juice is accurate. I have also never heard of, heard rumor of or personally witnessed anyone ever to be rubbed out, harmed or threatened at this level of gambling. It doesn't mean that it does not happen but I would believe it to be extremely rare. You would have to understand sports betting, to grasp why the system is set up that way. The bookie needs to make something and many times he is a middle man. The simplest answer is this - like all forms of gambling the system is set up for the person making the wager to lose. There are FAR more losers than winners - it is not close to a 50/50 system. So with that in mind obviously the bookie wants to collect on the losing wagers as there are far more. The other thing too is they want for you to be "in to them." Meaning in debt to them so you chase it. Chase it to create potentially more losses. Most of the time these are small wagers. $25 minimum / $100 max for a front. Also most won't let you in on the action without paying your wager in advance unless you have built up a good rapport.
    - No more wagers please, Nic ;-)

  • Laura
    Laura Michigan
    For some reason when I heard that Keith grabbed three beers my head turned a little. I found that interesting. Not sure why. I apologize if I missed this but were phone records collected to see if there were any calls made around the time he was in his apartment after being dropped off, allegedly. Did police look for any security cameras (were they even around in 97?). As far as the gambling angle, has anyone confirmed that there was an actual person that he placed bets with? I hope the detective follows-up with Keith's co-workers again even though he has no issue with how previous interviews were handled. Nic, I'm glad you mentioned at the end that you have a problem with the girlfriend not being polygraphed. Not sure why Chris passing his test has anything to do with his girlfriend. As soon as the detective said that I was like WTF. The detective seems to think some people know what happened or what might have happened. It has been 25 years. Anyone with knowledge needs to throw the detective a bone. It's time.

    For some reason when I heard that Keith grabbed three beers my head turned a little. I found that interesting. Not sure why. I apologize if I missed this but were phone records collected to see if there were any calls made around the time he was in his apartment after being dropped off, allegedly. Did police look for any security cameras (were they even around in 97?). As far as the gambling angle, has anyone confirmed that there was an actual person that he placed bets with? I hope the detective follows-up with Keith's co-workers again even though he has no issue with how previous interviews were handled. Nic, I'm glad you mentioned at the end that you have a problem with the girlfriend not being polygraphed. Not sure why Chris passing his test has anything to do with his girlfriend. As soon as the detective said that I was like WTF. The detective seems to think some people know what happened or what might have happened. It has been 25 years. Anyone with knowledge needs to throw the detective a bone. It's time.

  • Libby
    Libby Wichita, KS
    I’m interested in why exactly the pastor wouldn’t let him park there anymore. Were people complaining? Meeting up there late at night? Disturbing the neighbors? I don’t think Keith would have parked there again after the pastor asked him not to. I think it had to have been someone who didn’t know he had been told not to park there. I also don’t think it makes sense to park next to your parents house if you’re doing something illegal or sketchy. Too risky.

    I’m interested in why exactly the pastor wouldn’t let him park there anymore. Were people complaining? Meeting up there late at night? Disturbing the neighbors? I don’t think Keith would have parked there again after the pastor asked him not to. I think it had to have been someone who didn’t know he had been told not to park there. I also don’t think it makes sense to park next to your parents house if you’re doing something illegal or sketchy. Too risky.

  • True Crime Garage
    True Crime Garage
    @ Laura - As for phone call I hope they checked his apartments phone records. That would be a no brainer. I agree I wouldn't be so quick to clear Chris. - Cheers Nic

    @ Laura - As for phone call I hope they checked his apartments phone records. That would be a no brainer. I agree I wouldn't be so quick to clear Chris. - Cheers Nic

  • True Crime Garage
    True Crime Garage
    @ Libby - New Pastor new rules. I'm guessing here but rather than tell someone you can't park here because when we have church we need that spot - you are setting yourself up for the vehicle to be left and you have church. Plus I would think it also a situation of well if I let Keith do it than I should let everyone and you wouldn't want to start that. Cheers Nic

    @ Libby - New Pastor new rules. I'm guessing here but rather than tell someone you can't park here because when we have church we need that spot - you are setting yourself up for the vehicle to be left and you have church. Plus I would think it also a situation of well if I let Keith do it than I should let everyone and you wouldn't want to start that.
    Cheers Nic

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