The Zodiac /// 5 Part Series

25 comments

  • Jack Greene
    Jack Greene
    Lake Berryessa has got to be in the top five creepiest crimes i know of.

    Lake Berryessa has got to be in the top five creepiest crimes i know of.

  • Scott
    Scott CO
    Holy smokes, 5 part series?!?! You guys are too good to us.

    Holy smokes, 5 part series?!?! You guys are too good to us.

  • Aine Walsh
    Aine Walsh
    The captain mentioned a military background, there are military reserve and training buildings in Vallejo Ca, which is less than an hour from San Francisco. He could easily have lived in Vallejo and traveled to San Francisco, that’s less time than my commute to work from Orange County, CA to Los Angeles Ca.

    The captain mentioned a military background, there are military reserve and training buildings in Vallejo Ca, which is less than an hour from San Francisco. He could easily have lived in Vallejo and traveled to San Francisco, that’s less time than my commute to work from Orange County, CA to Los Angeles Ca.

  • SheilaM
    SheilaM
    Oh Wow!! I wanted to wait till all parts were here, but I just cannot help myself. I have to say thank you. Thank you... my "favourite" (let's say most intriguing) cold case. I was around, though not in the States at that time, and I remember the strange momentum that gathered apace around this crime. As @Jack says Lake Barryessa is haunting. Bryan Hartnell is a true hero. If he hadn't have fought for his life in so many ways we would not know what happened there. Thanks again guys. I have the chocolate, I have the champagne (sounds extravagant, but its only the cheapest of the cheap lol), tonight I'm in for a late one!

    Oh Wow!! I wanted to wait till all parts were here, but I just cannot help myself. I have to say thank you. Thank you... my "favourite" (let's say most intriguing) cold case. I was around, though not in the States at that time, and I remember the strange momentum that gathered apace around this crime. As @Jack says Lake Barryessa is haunting. Bryan Hartnell is a true hero. If he hadn't have fought for his life in so many ways we would not know what happened there.

    Thanks again guys. I have the chocolate, I have the champagne (sounds extravagant, but its only the cheapest of the cheap lol), tonight I'm in for a late one!

  • steve carbeck
    steve carbeck Ann Arbor
    What??? What happened to the bizzzness? I’m a creature of habit boys. Great fuckin show though. Enjoy the beers I’ve sent. Check out the April Millsap murder In Michigan, might make a good show.

    What??? What happened to the bizzzness? I’m a creature of habit boys. Great fuckin show though. Enjoy the beers I’ve sent. Check out the April Millsap murder In Michigan, might make a good show.

  • Debby Sullivan
    Debby Sullivan
    One of my favorites!!! I still think it was Arthur Leigh Allen. I know DNA excluded him, but I think he either got somebody else to lick his stamps or used water like I do

    One of my favorites!!! I still think it was Arthur Leigh Allen. I know DNA excluded him, but I think he either got somebody else to lick his stamps or used water like I do

  • RACHEL
    RACHEL O-H-I-O
    Thoroughly enjoyed the episodes. Not quite through episode 3. But I came here to say that I realize this may seem a bit out there, and is probably more "fun" to think about than legitimate.....but the Zodiac's last known crime was 1969, with letters continuing to 1974. Dan Cooper's heist was in November 1971. Both west coast crimes. A high jack doesn't fit with a sexual deviant murderer, but it does fit with a thrill seeking terrorist who has a penchant for tormenting law enforcement. Also wing walker boots were the preferred footwear of paratroopers. And if you put the sketch of the Zodiac next to the sketch of D.B. you will see they are not that different. Weight could have been lost in 2 or more years. Anyway, I know it's very far out there, but I can't live in a world without 'what ifs" so.... :)

    Thoroughly enjoyed the episodes. Not quite through episode 3. But I came here to say that I realize this may seem a bit out there, and is probably more "fun" to think about than legitimate.....but the Zodiac's last known crime was 1969, with letters continuing to 1974. Dan Cooper's heist was in November 1971. Both west coast crimes. A high jack doesn't fit with a sexual deviant murderer, but it does fit with a thrill seeking terrorist who has a penchant for tormenting law enforcement. Also wing walker boots were the preferred footwear of paratroopers. And if you put the sketch of the Zodiac next to the sketch of D.B. you will see they are not that different. Weight could have been lost in 2 or more years. Anyway, I know it's very far out there, but I can't live in a world without 'what ifs" so.... smile

  • Gail
    Gail Berkeley
    Having lived in Vallejo for several years, I have no issue with the directions to Blue Rock Springs. Vallejo was a rural, blue collar, military (home to Mare Island shipyards) town at the time. Blue Rock Springs was on the outskirts of town and you would have taken Columbus Parkway from either direction to get there. For anyone researching now, Blue Rock Springs parking lot was reconfigured years ago. Nic did an admirable job of pronouncing places like Benicia. Got much closer than Johnny Carson who pronounced it Ben-uh- Kai-uh. Correct pronunciation is Buh-knee-shuh. (Rhymes with duh)

    Having lived in Vallejo for several years, I have no issue with the directions to Blue Rock Springs. Vallejo was a rural, blue collar, military (home to Mare Island shipyards) town at the time. Blue Rock Springs was on the outskirts of town and you would have taken Columbus Parkway from either direction to get there.
    For anyone researching now, Blue Rock Springs parking lot was reconfigured years ago.
    Nic did an admirable job of pronouncing places like Benicia. Got much closer than Johnny Carson who pronounced it Ben-uh- Kai-uh. Correct pronunciation is Buh-knee-shuh. (Rhymes with duh)

  • Luciana S
    Luciana S
    There are some people who wonder if the murder of Lindy Sue Biechler is connected to the Zodiac. She was murdered on 05 Dec. 1975 in Lancaster PA. However, her killer wrote a note to LE similar to Zodiac style. In he letter he wanted LE to publish the letter in the newspaper. It may be a stretch, but some wonder if there is a connection. Lindy’s murder is also unsolved to this day.

    There are some people who wonder if the murder of Lindy Sue Biechler is connected to the Zodiac. She was murdered on 05 Dec. 1975 in Lancaster PA. However, her killer wrote a note to LE similar to Zodiac style. In he letter he wanted LE to publish the letter in the newspaper. It may be a stretch, but some wonder if there is a connection. Lindy’s murder is also unsolved to this day.

  • Slatts McCracker
    Slatts McCracker Sydney, Aus
    Awesome surprise to have Morf on. Ross Sullivan ticks a lot of the boxes for me Cheers

    Awesome surprise to have Morf on.

    Ross Sullivan ticks a lot of the boxes for me

    Cheers

  • Monica
    Monica New York
    Didn’t enjoy it. I think it was too long and you guys should stick to what has obviously been working

    Didn’t enjoy it. I think it was too long and you guys should stick to what has obviously been working

  • Jonesie
    Jonesie Kentucky
    Ted Cruz lol

    Ted Cruz lol

  • Cookie
    Cookie Topeka
    I’m glad he brought up the zodiac watch. The sea wolf zodiac dive watch was made by fossil in the 50s, popular in late 600s, and sports the exact symbol this POS ascribed to himself. The watch marketed to military post exchanges, and had a slogan, “real men wear zodiac” the literature advertised that navy seals wore them. I doubt it was a favorite with divers but more likely marketed to wannabes and enlisted wanting a Lloyd Bridges stealth look. Due to the histrionics of this POS I can imagine he wanted the power feeling from wearing a military looking dive watch stealing it’s logo.

    I’m glad he brought up the zodiac watch.

    The sea wolf zodiac dive watch was made by fossil in the 50s, popular in late 600s, and sports the exact symbol this POS ascribed to himself.

    The watch marketed to military post exchanges, and had a slogan, “real men wear zodiac” the literature advertised that navy seals wore them.

    I doubt it was a favorite with divers but more likely marketed to wannabes and enlisted wanting a Lloyd Bridges stealth look.

    Due to the histrionics of this POS I can imagine he wanted the power feeling from wearing a military looking dive watch stealing it’s logo.

  • Christina
    Christina Waxhaw, NC
    I'm listening to you guys discuss his privacy and if he lives with his mom, etc. It made me think: What if a made-for-TV movie got made that showed him as a pathetic, mama's boy who feels sorry for himself and just lives a pitiful life. If he were still alive, I bet he'd say something!

    I'm listening to you guys discuss his privacy and if he lives with his mom, etc. It made me think: What if a made-for-TV movie got made that showed him as a pathetic, mama's boy who feels sorry for himself and just lives a pitiful life. If he were still alive, I bet he'd say something!

  • Christie Groves
    Christie Groves Seattle, WA
    Well, I struggled with this case- so I researched, researched and researched it, & there it was- when I read Arthur Leigh Allen's desires for his dearest possessions left to friends and family (Brother) in his last will and testament, he mentioned leaving his 2 boats to his friend and the boats were a Hobie Cat and a Monohull, bear with me (like a Grizzly): I had an A-ha moment, "take on me", so I looked some more and there it was, that care and consideration that went into the Zodiac Hood, the stitching, the methodical embroidery on canvas, a layering of sorts shielding the mast directing it, directing him the Zodiac, and I found it- "When, what to my wondering eyes should appear", in 1953: Allen worked as a sail maker at Mare Island Naval Shipyard in Vallejo, Calif. Oddly- I worked for Kurt Hughes for 11 years a famous Multihull designer up here in Seattle, WA. so I know a lot about these hulls and the sails that are flown. While I always had an Empathy for Leigh and his interviews regardless of evidence, it just added up now. I wanted it to be the last guy on the list the StepFather- Jack Tarrance, but now I don't think it is. That hood, the Zodiac hood, has lower shrouds sewn on it caping over the shoulders of Zodiac. This is just too much for me along with all the other evidence. I could be wrong, I probably am, but I am okay with that. The only thing I have an issue with is Leigh said he was a Boxer, well I box- geez for 20 years now, and I agree- your right hand gets arthritic- it suffers, you can't write, and any writing you do do, is chicken scratch, some detective said Leigh was left handed which his writings are more leftest as they are straight up and down but that is in his printing, but he did have beautiful penmanship versus lower case. The Zodiac is right handed, you can tell by his slant, it was hard to say that Leigh and the Zodiac had the same writing but if I base it off his penmanship and a good day for his boxers right hand then I say yes to this too. Can't wait for episode 5!

    Well, I struggled with this case- so I researched, researched and researched it, & there it was- when I read Arthur Leigh Allen's desires for his dearest possessions left to friends and family (Brother) in his last will and testament, he mentioned leaving his 2 boats to his friend and the boats were a Hobie Cat and a Monohull, bear with me (like a Grizzly): I had an A-ha moment, "take on me", so I looked some more and there it was, that care and consideration that went into the Zodiac Hood, the stitching, the methodical embroidery on canvas, a layering of sorts shielding the mast directing it, directing him the Zodiac, and I found it- "When, what to my wondering eyes should appear", in 1953: Allen worked as a sail maker at Mare Island Naval Shipyard in Vallejo, Calif. Oddly- I worked for Kurt Hughes for 11 years a famous Multihull designer up here in Seattle, WA. so I know a lot about these hulls and the sails that are flown. While I always had an Empathy for Leigh and his interviews regardless of evidence, it just added up now. I wanted it to be the last guy on the list the StepFather- Jack Tarrance, but now I don't think it is. That hood, the Zodiac hood, has lower shrouds sewn on it caping over the shoulders of Zodiac. This is just too much for me along with all the other evidence. I could be wrong, I probably am, but I am okay with that. The only thing I have an issue with is Leigh said he was a Boxer, well I box- geez for 20 years now, and I agree- your right hand gets arthritic- it suffers, you can't write, and any writing you do do, is chicken scratch, some detective said Leigh was left handed which his writings are more leftest as they are straight up and down but that is in his printing, but he did have beautiful penmanship versus lower case. The Zodiac is right handed, you can tell by his slant, it was hard to say that Leigh and the Zodiac had the same writing but if I base it off his penmanship and a good day for his boxers right hand then I say yes to this too. Can't wait for episode 5!

  • Amy
    Amy KY
    Really enjoying the series. You keep coming back to the missing 20 minutes before he called the police— maybe it’s as simple as he wanted to wait long enough to be sure they’d bleed out before help arrived.

    Really enjoying the series. You keep coming back to the missing 20 minutes before he called the police— maybe it’s as simple as he wanted to wait long enough to be sure they’d bleed out before help arrived.

  • Bee
    Bee Sydney
    (Ep4) Growing up in the 1970's (Australia) we had 5 LPs in the house, one of which was The Mikado. By default, I knew a lot of the words. (We were educated but not posh.) It may have been similar for Z. Yeah yeah, I know, this snippet is gunna finally bust this case to smithereens.

    (Ep4) Growing up in the 1970's (Australia) we had 5 LPs in the house, one of which was The Mikado. By default, I knew a lot of the words. (We were educated but not posh.) It may have been similar for Z.
    Yeah yeah, I know, this snippet is gunna finally bust this case to smithereens.

  • Christie Groves
    Christie Groves Seattle, WA
    I just wanted to conclude my previous statement/comment with, I do know Arthur Leigh Allen was ruled out. Leigh's palm print, finger prints and the stamps only had partial DNA on them. DNA as we know has come far in the last few years alone. I don't rule out that the palm, finger prints and the stamps were someone else's prints/DNA. Back then Crime Scenes as we know weren't contained as well as they are now and we have officers at the scenes, fire dept., medics., coroner, misc., crews, and reporters. For the Stamp, we have mail carriers, mail sorters, whomever got the mail, opened the mail, the persons who sold the envelopes, tablets and so forth, there are many hands in the cookie jar here. I also do not think his misspellings are as such, I think they are well intended, I think he was no novice, to the English Language (like a school teacher, someone with a bachelor of arts like Leigh). Zodiac was a Renaissance Man, a good study and so was Leigh. WoEman one of his misspellings to me is a play on how sad and burdened he thinks women are, or how he feels (a sad man). ParadiCe, to me seams more like a big clue he is a long side or next to 6 sides of numbers or he is alongside the game of chance- roll of the dice. ParadiCe is not such an odd spelling it was used in English in the 1600's and is often written in old books this way, and Leigh had all these kind of books. Did anyone ever see his bibliotheque in his basement? I also don't think the code that was recently cracked is not sufficient, I think it's darn close though, but again I think Zodiac is speaking about the roll of the dice and thats what life is to him, and slaves is just the wrong word all around and should read life enslaves us or something as such. Thank you again for this 5 part episode. I have a million more thoughts, but another day, another time, same bat channel. “I have found both freedom and safety in my madness; the freedom of loneliness and the safety from being understood, for those who understand us enslave something in us.” ― Kahlil Gibran, The Madman

    I just wanted to conclude my previous statement/comment with, I do know Arthur Leigh Allen was ruled out. Leigh's palm print, finger prints and the stamps only had partial DNA on them. DNA as we know has come far in the last few years alone. I don't rule out that the palm, finger prints and the stamps were someone else's prints/DNA. Back then Crime Scenes as we know weren't contained as well as they are now and we have officers at the scenes, fire dept., medics., coroner, misc., crews, and reporters. For the Stamp, we have mail carriers, mail sorters, whomever got the mail, opened the mail, the persons who sold the envelopes, tablets and so forth, there are many hands in the cookie jar here. I also do not think his misspellings are as such, I think they are well intended, I think he was no novice, to the English Language (like a school teacher, someone with a bachelor of arts like Leigh). Zodiac was a Renaissance Man, a good study and so was Leigh. WoEman one of his misspellings to me is a play on how sad and burdened he thinks women are, or how he feels (a sad man). ParadiCe, to me seams more like a big clue he is a long side or next to 6 sides of numbers or he is alongside the game of chance- roll of the dice. ParadiCe is not such an odd spelling it was used in English in the 1600's and is often written in old books this way, and Leigh had all these kind of books. Did anyone ever see his bibliotheque in his basement? I also don't think the code that was recently cracked is not sufficient, I think it's darn close though, but again I think Zodiac is speaking about the roll of the dice and thats what life is to him, and slaves is just the wrong word all around and should read life enslaves us or something as such. Thank you again for this 5 part episode. I have a million more thoughts, but another day, another time, same bat channel.
    “I have found both freedom and safety in my madness; the freedom of loneliness and the safety from being understood, for those who understand us enslave something in us.”
    ― Kahlil Gibran, The Madman

  • Ty
    Ty Jackson
    Now we need an episode six, in which the Colonel and the Captain discuss their own theories of who, what, why. Sum it up for us. It doesn't have a bow on it yet. Maybe that's a good one for Off the Record. It's hard for me to get past Arthur Leigh Allen. There's a recently uncovered photo of him when he was a coach (before he got fired for molesting students) and in that photo he looks very much like the sketch, much more than he ever did again. He just had, at the time of the Zodiac killings, one of those doughy faces that change appearance a lot as the person's weight fluctuates, and his hair was changing as well (receding) about that time and shortly after, so he just looks different not long after the first few attacks.

    Now we need an episode six, in which the Colonel and the Captain discuss their own theories of who, what, why. Sum it up for us. It doesn't have a bow on it yet. Maybe that's a good one for Off the Record.

    It's hard for me to get past Arthur Leigh Allen. There's a recently uncovered photo of him when he was a coach (before he got fired for molesting students) and in that photo he looks very much like the sketch, much more than he ever did again. He just had, at the time of the Zodiac killings, one of those doughy faces that change appearance a lot as the person's weight fluctuates, and his hair was changing as well (receding) about that time and shortly after, so he just looks different not long after the first few attacks.

  • Kelly
    Kelly Los Angeles
    Ross Sullivan wow. I wonder how much the cops looked into him. This may have been done but maybe looking at old Thomas guides of Vallejo in the area around the phone booth would yield some success or one of the suspects names may pop up. I don’t know many guys who talk about getting their rocks off with girls it seems like an awkward statement. I wonder if the Zodiac was inexperienced with women or maybe gay and couldn’t accept that in himself so lashed out. Possibly he had a very alpha male type dad who was in the military. Anyways my thoughts and my “favorite” unsolved case.

    Ross Sullivan wow. I wonder how much the cops looked into him. This may have been done but maybe looking at old Thomas guides of Vallejo in the area around the phone booth would yield some success or one of the suspects names may pop up. I don’t know many guys who talk about getting their rocks off with girls it seems like an awkward statement. I wonder if the Zodiac was inexperienced with women or maybe gay and couldn’t accept that in himself so lashed out. Possibly he had a very alpha male type dad who was in the military. Anyways my thoughts and my “favorite” unsolved case.

  • Kevin
    Kevin Canada
    Does anybody now the exact positioning of the cars on Lake Herman Road? I assume Z parked on David’s side of the car and had to walk around the front of the Rambler to do the killing?

    Does anybody now the exact positioning of the cars on Lake Herman Road? I assume Z parked on David’s side of the car and had to walk around the front of the Rambler to do the killing?

  • Nic
    Nic Miami
    I keep rewinding but I hear you say "Napa Valley, Florida" and I was soooo confused. (Episode 2 - 25:22)

    I keep rewinding but I hear you say "Napa Valley, Florida" and I was soooo confused. (Episode 2 - 25:22)

  • Spanners
    Spanners London
    "No woody on lover's lane" "If it's brown or light brown flush it down" The Captain is on fire again in ep1 😂😂

    "No woody on lover's lane"

    "If it's brown or light brown flush it down"

    The Captain is on fire again in ep1 😂😂

  • Mary
    Mary Ocean Isle Beach, NC
    I was a little girl in California during Zodiac. Picking up on where Nic or the Captain thinks this was a Navy man - during that time, Mare Island Naval Shipyard was still open and had submarines docked there. Looking forward to hearing about potential resolution of the Bates case that could lead to Zodiac.

    I was a little girl in California during Zodiac. Picking up on where Nic or the Captain thinks this was a Navy man - during that time, Mare Island Naval Shipyard was still open and had submarines docked there. Looking forward to hearing about potential resolution of the Bates case that could lead to Zodiac.

  • Oregon Buckeye
    Oregon Buckeye Sasquatch Valley
    Really well-done series and the guest actually contributed well to the discussion. (Best guest since that crazy dude who talked about his fetish to be a serial killer/cannibal.) I think Nick laid out the complicated case in an easy to understand format and painted a good version of the story. However, I just keep coming back to the discrepancies. To me, it doesn't add up. I have this nagging doubt that there is no Zodiac Killer. The killings and attacks happened of course, but I'm not convinced they are connected. The Stine murder is 100% different than the Lake Berryessa attack and Berryessa is a different bird than the lover's lane shootings. I just cannot reconcile myself to the idea that it is the same perpetrator. Perhaps there were two killers working together or perhaps Barryessa was a copycat. I might seem tinfoil hat nuts but it doesn't smell right. I'm also not convinced that all of the letters or even any of the letters were actually written by the killer. The letters could have been penned by some other nut. We do know that the detective Toschi wrote one of the letters himself and got in trouble with his superiors for it. I think it might have cost him his job. He would have had access to Stine's shirt. (He also liked the publicity and Hollywood-- he was the model for Steve McQueen in Bullit and Dirty Harry.) Paul Avery, a decent writer but a terrible drunk and addict was also desperate for a story. The whole episode kept him working. Greysmith, too. I don't know. It just doesn't add up. But, Arthur Leigh Allen does seem like a good suspect. He was all sorts of creepy, weird, and dirty. I don't know that he should be ruled out for the killings due to DNA and prints not matching. As I said, we don't know those letters were even written by the killer. Generation Why did an episode along this line with an author, Horan(?) maybe, who went down this rabbit hole. (That these were individual crimes bundled up together by a shady journalist and a publicity-hungry cop, not necessarily working together.)

    Really well-done series and the guest actually contributed well to the discussion. (Best guest since that crazy dude who talked about his fetish to be a serial killer/cannibal.) I think Nick laid out the complicated case in an easy to understand format and painted a good version of the story. However, I just keep coming back to the discrepancies. To me, it doesn't add up. I have this nagging doubt that there is no Zodiac Killer. The killings and attacks happened of course, but I'm not convinced they are connected. The Stine murder is 100% different than the Lake Berryessa attack and Berryessa is a different bird than the lover's lane shootings.

    I just cannot reconcile myself to the idea that it is the same perpetrator. Perhaps there were two killers working together or perhaps Barryessa was a copycat. I might seem tinfoil hat nuts but it doesn't smell right. I'm also not convinced that all of the letters or even any of the letters were actually written by the killer. The letters could have been penned by some other nut. We do know that the detective Toschi wrote one of the letters himself and got in trouble with his superiors for it. I think it might have cost him his job. He would have had access to Stine's shirt. (He also liked the publicity and Hollywood-- he was the model for Steve McQueen in Bullit and Dirty Harry.)

    Paul Avery, a decent writer but a terrible drunk and addict was also desperate for a story. The whole episode kept him working. Greysmith, too. I don't know. It just doesn't add up. But, Arthur Leigh Allen does seem like a good suspect. He was all sorts of creepy, weird, and dirty. I don't know that he should be ruled out for the killings due to DNA and prints not matching. As I said, we don't know those letters were even written by the killer.

    Generation Why did an episode along this line with an author, Horan(?) maybe, who went down this rabbit hole. (That these were individual crimes bundled up together by a shady journalist and a publicity-hungry cop, not necessarily working together.)

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