Barry and Honey Sherman /// 210 /// 211

22 comments

  • Emily

    Emily Parts Unknown

    I haven't finished the episode yet, but I have a comment about the lockbox situation. I'm a housekeeper, and for most of the houses I do, there is access instructions. Sometimes that is a lockbox, sometimes that is a hidden key, garage code, or potentially an unlocked door (typically not a front door). If they are having a housekeeper and gardener coming every week, they would have a key situation set up for them. Even clients that we have that are typically home when we arrive, have a backup set up somewhere. Sometimes clients who have more than just us coming to the house (maybe they have a babysitter/nanny, dog walker, gardener, or whatever) they might have a secondary lockbox for them that uses a different code. There is the potential there was a housekeeper lockbox that wasn't for the real estate agent, or the real estate agent was using their lockbox. These codes typically don't get changed very often if ever. I've also done some large mansions that are in gated communities (2.5+ million dollar homes on acres of land) where the front gate is often just left open for landscapers and other service type people. Homes I do in these types of neighborhoods vary in their level of at home security. Some will just leave the front door open if they know they have a service person there, others have lockboxes or keypad entry. Some are also just so big, with so many exterior doors to patios and things, that those being locked often goes overlooked. Side bar, this scenario is about 75% of the people I work withs biggest fear. That someone close to the family or a family member who knows when we come by, will commit a murder, and we will unknowing clean up a crime scene. Unless you've never been to a house before, you typically go in, and start your set routine, and open doors or go to floors once you are finished with whatever task you set as first. I would be interested to know how the housekeeper got in, if they are use to the door being left unlocked for them, they wouldn't find that odd if that was how it was. Also, if it wasn't typically unlocked, but was this time, it also wouldn't be too weird, at least for me. I've had clients who I'm use to seeing at home, who have left to run errands or something, and left their front door which is usually locked, unlocked for me.

    I haven't finished the episode yet, but I have a comment about the lockbox situation. I'm a housekeeper, and for most of the houses I do, there is access instructions. Sometimes that is a lockbox, sometimes that is a hidden key, garage code, or potentially an unlocked door (typically not a front door). If they are having a housekeeper and gardener coming every week, they would have a key situation set up for them. Even clients that we have that are typically home when we arrive, have a backup set up somewhere. Sometimes clients who have more than just us coming to the house (maybe they have a babysitter/nanny, dog walker, gardener, or whatever) they might have a secondary lockbox for them that uses a different code. There is the potential there was a housekeeper lockbox that wasn't for the real estate agent, or the real estate agent was using their lockbox. These codes typically don't get changed very often if ever.

    I've also done some large mansions that are in gated communities (2.5+ million dollar homes on acres of land) where the front gate is often just left open for landscapers and other service type people. Homes I do in these types of neighborhoods vary in their level of at home security. Some will just leave the front door open if they know they have a service person there, others have lockboxes or keypad entry. Some are also just so big, with so many exterior doors to patios and things, that those being locked often goes overlooked.

    Side bar, this scenario is about 75% of the people I work withs biggest fear. That someone close to the family or a family member who knows when we come by, will commit a murder, and we will unknowing clean up a crime scene. Unless you've never been to a house before, you typically go in, and start your set routine, and open doors or go to floors once you are finished with whatever task you set as first.

    I would be interested to know how the housekeeper got in, if they are use to the door being left unlocked for them, they wouldn't find that odd if that was how it was. Also, if it wasn't typically unlocked, but was this time, it also wouldn't be too weird, at least for me. I've had clients who I'm use to seeing at home, who have left to run errands or something, and left their front door which is usually locked, unlocked for me.

  • jaekavants

    jaekavants

    Maybe when Honey arrived home, she saw someone she knew which could explain her car being parked in the driveway and when she got out, she was ambushed from behind by someone else, covering her mouth which could’ve caused bruising on her face which could play into the 2 person theory and when Barry got home(was his car parked in the driveway or the garage?) he was surprised and made to keep silent or they would harm Honey so they could get what they needed from him or she was already dead and they were lying in wait for him to come home.

    Maybe when Honey arrived home, she saw someone she knew which could explain her car being parked in the driveway and when she got out, she was ambushed from behind by someone else, covering her mouth which could’ve caused bruising on her face which could play into the 2 person theory and when Barry got home(was his car parked in the driveway or the garage?) he was surprised and made to keep silent or they would harm Honey so they could get what they needed from him or she was already dead and they were lying in wait for him to come home.

  • Neverj

    Neverj Georgia

    Please post the links to all the known big pharma hits please. You mentioned doctors which I'm not sure why big pharma would bother but I'd like to be informed. Great pair of episodes this week.

    Please post the links to all the known big pharma hits please. You mentioned doctors which I'm not sure why big pharma would bother but I'd like to be informed. Great pair of episodes this week.

  • Groshau

    Groshau San Jose, California

    Just finished episode 1 and was digging around and supposedly they were supposed to testify against the Clintons regarding Haiti? Has anyone else read or heard about this?

    Just finished episode 1 and was digging around and supposedly they were supposed to testify against the Clintons regarding Haiti? Has anyone else read or heard about this?

  • hume man

    hume man Iowa

    It seems unlikely that the incompetent murder police and permissive courts of Canada will be able to sort out a stone whodunit like this (assuming that it is not actually a murder-suicide). Nothing against the nation or people of Canada by any means, they just don't have the aptitude for hardcore criminal investigation that we have had to develop in the U.S.

    It seems unlikely that the incompetent murder police and permissive courts of Canada will be able to sort out a stone whodunit like this (assuming that it is not actually a murder-suicide). Nothing against the nation or people of Canada by any means, they just don't have the aptitude for hardcore criminal investigation that we have had to develop in the U.S.

  • Scarlet

    Scarlet Vancouver Island BC

    I know you guys probably won’t get this but you really make my work days easier. I really appreciate you for caring about these cases and what happens to them. You guys make me laugh and really make me think. Thank you:)

    I know you guys probably won’t get this but you really make my work days easier. I really appreciate you for caring about these cases and what happens to them. You guys make me laugh and really make me think. Thank yousmile

  • Vicki

    Vicki Germany

    What if Honey was threatened and then killed to force Barry’s hand in some matter? And when it didn’t work, Barry was killed in a similar fashion and they are displayed as a message?

    What if Honey was threatened and then killed to force Barry’s hand in some matter? And when it didn’t work, Barry was killed in a similar fashion and they are displayed as a message?

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    @ NeverJ - just do a search of doctors killed by big pharma and you'll be reading for days. Please take a break from all of that reading and listen to next week's show! Cheers Nic

    @ NeverJ - just do a search of doctors killed by big pharma and you'll be reading for days. Please take a break from all of that reading and listen to next week's show!
    Cheers Nic

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    @ Hume man While I think The Toronto Police Service (TPS) should have handled their early press talks completely different, I do have a lot of faith in the TPS. I think somewhere there is some kind of paper trail to whomever hired this hit. I think the private investigators will come across this and turn that info over to TPS and they will use their resources to bring these bastards to court. Expect 4-6 arrests, would be my guess but unfortunately it's going to take some time. Cheers Nic

    @ Hume man
    While I think The Toronto Police Service (TPS) should have handled their early press talks completely different, I do have a lot of faith in the TPS. I think somewhere there is some kind of paper trail to whomever hired this hit. I think the private investigators will come across this and turn that info over to TPS and they will use their resources to bring these bastards to court. Expect 4-6 arrests, would be my guess but unfortunately it's going to take some time.
    Cheers Nic

  • Abbie

    Abbie Milwaukee

    Long time listener, first time commenter. Maybe this is just completely off the rails but after listening last night and thinking on the question posed of "why kill Honey?" if Barry was the primary target I couldn't help but wonder... What if Honey the primary target and Barry was just because he happened to come home? Looking at their movements leading up to the murder it's Honey who has something unusual happen in missing that meeting. Barry it seems was business as usual. Maybe there's something about Honey we don't know.

    Long time listener, first time commenter. Maybe this is just completely off the rails but after listening last night and thinking on the question posed of "why kill Honey?" if Barry was the primary target I couldn't help but wonder... What if Honey the primary target and Barry was just because he happened to come home? Looking at their movements leading up to the murder it's Honey who has something unusual happen in missing that meeting. Barry it seems was business as usual. Maybe there's something about Honey we don't know.

  • Amber

    Amber Eugene, OR

    This seems like an organized hit on Barry, and it definitely feels personal. Even if those responsible didn't have any beef with Honey, setting it up as a suicide/murder would further tarnish Barry's reputation. Like the final F/U to Barry. Why I lean towards this being personal and not business related is because Honey didn't attend one of her meetings and said she was "dealing with" some things. That sounds like family issues. Thanks for another great episode! I hope you will consider doing an EARONS/Golden State Killer episode(s).

    This seems like an organized hit on Barry, and it definitely feels personal. Even if those responsible didn't have any beef with Honey, setting it up as a suicide/murder would further tarnish Barry's reputation. Like the final F/U to Barry.
    Why I lean towards this being personal and not business related is because Honey didn't attend one of her meetings and said she was "dealing with" some things. That sounds like family issues.
    Thanks for another great episode! I hope you will consider doing an EARONS/Golden State Killer episode(s).

  • Anonymous

    Anonymous

    Ok. Have listened to both episodes and the comments. I live in Toronto and know a lot about this case so I"m just going to throw stuff out there to address things in the episodes and the comments that I can answer. 1. Both Barry and Honey's cars were parked in the driveway when their bodies were discovered. It looks like Honey went in the back / side door and Barry went in the front door. No one was taken, attacked or surprised in garage because they didn't park there or enter there. My understanding is that they often just left the cars in the long circular driveway. 2. There were no gates to the house. Barry hated using the alarm. Barry also was a privacy junkie and shredded everything. He would never have let there be cameras in the house. Any cameras on the house were only outside and were not running at the time. The alarm was not set or on when the crime happened. 3. The murder suicide rumours were started when the press arrived on scene on Dec 15th. The scene was being guarded by the patrol guys who had been called and arrived first. They, and a few other beat cops, were in front of the house protecting the crime scene. One of them said to a reporter that there were 2 bodies and no forced entry. The reporter ran with murder suicide. The first investigators had to figure out what had happened in the house. They called in the homicide division pretty quickly. On the 17th, after the autopsies had been completed, the coroner released cause of death for both Honey and Barry – “ligature neck compression”. Homicide and the rest of the cops were calling the deaths "suspicious". January 20th, the PIs who had been hired by the family released their theory that there had to have been more than 1 killer. The police used the word “suspicious” until their press conference on January 26th at which time the lead homicide detective said that the deaths were now being considered as "a targeted double homicide". 4. Honey's face had signs of violence and they found a little bit of blood on the front of her clothes. There was also a bigger pool of blood under her body. It looked like her lip was split and she had also bled from her nose. The theory is that the pool of blood was probably created when Honey struggled and had to be turned over, face down on the tiles, which accounts for not much blood on her clothes but a small pool of blood underneath her. 5. They were found by the real estate agent who had brought in another agent and a couple to view the house. She prevented everyone from entering the pool area when she saw the bodies and she called the police. Honey's trainer showed up at the house right after for his regular scheduled appointment. Then the first police arrived and they called for backup. 6. They believed that they were killed late on December 13th or early in the morning on December 14th. They believe this because they were both wearing the same clothes they wore on December 13th when they were last seen. And because when they found the bodies, they were limp, meaning that rigor had already happened and passed. They may have been left in the pool area to mess with time of death. If the pool was heated and the room was heated, it would be hot and humid which would cause rigor mortis to set in sooner. The room is surrounded by glass and if they were not using the pool, the heat may have been low and the room could have been considerably cooler which would have delayed rigor. It is commonly held that rigor sets in about 4-7 hours after death. Rigor is then released anywhere between 24-48 hours post mortem and the body becomes flabby and decomposition begins. When they were found and rigor had come and gone. I’m guessing the room was heated, (or the heat was turned on by the killers) which would have sped up the process but that still means they had to have been dead for 36 hours. So night or early morning of the 13th/14th. 7. Fear not! There is a beer connection! Barry had lent money to a guy in the beverage business. The company was failing and the owner lost any physical assets in the failure to Barry. Barry then backed his son Jonathon, (Jon,) to run Steelback breweries, one of the companies in the group of failing companies. The brewery was founded in 2002 by the original owner. Jon Sherman took over running the brewery in May 2008. In very early 2010 all employees were let go and they started to sell their equipment. This was the end of Steelback breweries. Just as a side note, one can assume from the quick failure and closure that Barry was not willing to give his son any more money to run the brewery, even as he was giving away $50 million dollars to universities and hospitals. How does the son feel about that? 8. Before you jump all over the Toronto cops – who actually are pretty great, (watch how they took down the suspect who killed 10 people driving on the sidewalk), let me give you more info on the investigation. The homicide detectives locked down any information leaks as soon as they were on scene. They called the deaths suspicious. They immediately asked for and were granted many “covert” search warrants and production orders. They were talking to all suspects, or people who might have knowledge or be connected to the case, including Kerry Rivers, the cousin. What this means is we don’t have a lot of insight into what they have collected and where they collected it from and even the people they have talked to. It does tell us they acted very quickly after the discovery of the bodies to get these covert things in place and going while letting the public spin on thinking it was a murder suicide. They may know who killed them and not yet have the evidence to support the charge. And they may have things in place to collect evidence that will build their case. We can only know how well the cops performed when they release full information or a killer/s is arrested and found guilty. Right now, I think the cops are being very smart. 9. At the Police press conference on January 26th, the lead detective, Det. Sgt. Susan Gomes, said they investigated three possibilities - that the Shermans’ deaths were a double suicide, a murder-suicide or a double homicide. They were very thorough in going through all the evidence before drawing the conclusion that it was a “targeted double homicide.” In truth, they knew it was a double homicide as soon as they saw the scene but they needed to exhaust all possibilities. So homicide immediately started to act on that theory, while other groups of cops chased down the 2 other possibilities so all bases were covered. 10. Kerry River is bat-shit crazy. He is currently being assessed to determine if he has a mental “disability” that would prevent him from representing himself in his appeal for one-fifth of the Apotex founder’s riches. The people that have requested this evaluation is not the prosecution, but his siblings and his lawyers. The request for evaluation contains this wording, “Kerry Winter is unable to self-represent or instruct counsel, appreciate the reasonably foreseeable consequences of his decisions and the issues which are relevant to this proceeding and is at serious risk of relapse because of his mental disability which has been exacerbated as a result of this proceeding.” He could not have pulled this off, and a professional would never have worked with him because of the crazy factor. If he had anything to do with it. He would have already “indivertibly” told someone. Don’t for a minute think that he wasn’t looked at early and hard. He can remember he was questioned but he isn’t totally sure if it were once or twice. This guy, as well as his brother and sister-in-law, had a better chance of getting some cash with Barry alive, not dead. Again, he fried his brain for years on drugs. He is just not capable of committing or engineering this kind of crime. 11. I’m going to simplify this so everyone can understand what happened with the companies but first you need to understand what was going on in the family. Barry Sherman’s dad died when he was 10. He started to spend weekends, holidays and Sundays running deliveries for his Uncle Louis, (his mother’s brother,) who owned Empire. In 1965, Louis and his wife had 4 young boys (Dana, Jeff, Kerry and Timothy) and were living in Toronto. She had leukemia and they knew she was dying. Then 17 days before she died, Louis suffered a surprise aneurism and dies. Louis’ wife had not been born Jewish. She converted to marry Louis. Her brother wanted and was prepared to take the 4 boys and raise them when she died. She did not want this as she wanted them to be raised Jewish and so before she died, she arranged for a young successful Jewish couple to adopt the kids, now that Louis was dead. The oldest boy was seven and the youngest was 2. When she died, this is what happened, and Barry lost track of the cousins until the late 1980s. 12. Barry was at MIT when his Uncle Louis died. A group of trustees were appointed to run Empire. Barry tried to buy Empire several times but the trustees kept turning him down. Barry then approached them with evidence that the company was failing under their leadership and so the trustees agreed to the sale. As part of the sale, an option was included with the sale that said Empire (company A) would after any of the cousins had turned 21 or completed their formal education be given a position at Empire. In addition, if they worked at Empire for greater than 2 years, they could buy up to 5% of the shares. The deal goes through and now Barry and his partner own Empire, Company A. In 1972, ICN Pharmaceuticals (Company B) bought Empire which netted Barry and his partner, a couple thousand dollars each. When Company B bought A, the option that was in place for the cousins, expires and is no longer enforceable. A year later, Barry founded Apotex (Company C) on his own. And the company took off. 13. In 1988, Dana and Barry were reconnected. At this time, Dana and Kerry were drug addicts and had been for a while and Jeffery had been diagnosed as bipolar and was in and out of treatment. These 3 cousins Kerry, Dana and Jeff, started to ask Barry for help. Tim never asked Sherman for a thing and today is a chef. From an article in Toronto Life, “Barry bankrolled three of the Winter children in their ventures. Dana started a jewelry business; Jeff moved from a travel company into custom CDs; Kerry launched a construction company. Barry bought them homes and cottages, paid Visa bills and gave out allowances, lending millions on dubious security. Behind his back, Dana called him “Bank Sherman.”’ Barry also paid for multiple stints in rehab for Dana and Kerry. In 1995, Dana fell back into drugs, got involved in a bad situation and was facing conspiracy charges in the murder of another drug dealer. Barry paid Dana’s bond and while Dana was out on bond, he overdosed and died. At this time, Barry was still supporting the two other cousins and Kerry was getting an allowance of $20,000 a month. Kerry, Jeff and Julia (Dana’s widow) looked into the sale of Empire and decided they had been cheated out of their legacy. Despite, everyone telling them they had no case and should just accept what Barry was doing for them, in 2007 these 3 filed suit against Barry for a billion dollars. Barry felt betrayed and so he called in the loans, took back what he had given to the cousins and refused a settlement offer. This is when the 10 year lawsuit was launched. The cousins argued that Barry could never have started Apotex without the money from the sale of Empire. In September 2017, a couple months before Barry was murdered, a judge dismissed the case and required the litigious 3 to pay back $300,000 in legal fees. 14. So to wrap up the cousins saga – Barry bought Empire and included protection for Louis’ sons. When Company B bought Empire, the option protecting Louis’ sons became unenforceable. Despite having no legal obligations to the cousins, when they were reconnected, Barry was very generous with them. They then turned around and sued him for a billion dollars. The legal stuff continues and the cousins are appealing the dismissal so they can refile the suit and try to get money from the estate. 15. Barry was well liked within the walls of Apotex, but outside of Apotex he was widely loathed. For the entirety of Apotex existence, there have always been multiple legal disputes going on. Barry always pushed the limits and often pushed beyond them beyond. He ruined careers, was involved in price fixing, and violated patents and probably other things as well. He was also believed to have connections and work with known criminals. When he was murdered, he literally has some or all ownership in dozens, if not hundreds of companies. 16. For the Captain, with regard to the car – Barry and, to a lesser degree, Honey remained spendthrifts. They flew economy, Barry wore his clothes until they were so bad Honey had to throw them out. And Barry believed that you drove a car until it would go no further and then you bought another modest car and did the same. On his 50th birthday, Honey bought him a red sports car. Barry made Honey take it back and he kept driving the dinged-up wreck of a car that he had then. 17. My thoughts & hypothesis on the murders: - The killer/s were known to them. I would not be surprised if they were just let into the home. I don’t think the lockbox is a factor one way or another. - The killers knew about and likely had previously been in the house. It was exceedingly well planned. - Like Nik was saying, it wasn’t just Barry who was killed, it was also Honey. Honey being murdered alongside Barry changes the equation. If it was just Barry who was murdered, Honey would have taken over management of the company and she would have inherited all the money. - This murder was only possible with insider information and it was meticulously done, leaving almost no clues or traces. - The killer/s would most likely have killed before, given the sophistication and planning of the murder. - There were drag marks on the carpet, the thought being that at some point they had to drag Honey to get her to the basement. - I believe that Honey’s face was injured at the location where they were found. - We don’t know if they were killed by strangulation and then hung or they died in the hanging. I lean towards them dying in the hanging. Regardless, it would have been an exceedingly painful and terror filled death for each of them. They would have slowly suffocated because of the belts. They would have known they were dying and known that the other was dying too. - There is a message in the staging. The staging means something to the killer/s. Staging them the way they did would have taken time and they would have been at higher risk of being discovered and of inadvertently leaving clues behind the longer they were in the house. That risk was one they were willing to take to make sure the bodies were staged the way they were. - This murder is deeply personal to the killer/s. He/she wanted to see them suffer and wanted them to know it was him/her that was killing them. They were likely on scene for the murder. - This killer/s are not likely going to be overheard on a bar stool drunkenly bragging about the crime. They are way too smart. So I think the key to solving this crime lies in being able to answer the following questions: 1. Why were Barry AND Honey killed together and not just Barry, or not just Honey? 2. What is gained and who gains it when Barry and Honey die together? 3. Were they both meant to die that night or did something change? i.e. Honey could have hired someone and then the murderer killed her too to leave no trace. Or vice versa. 4. What is the message in the staging? What does it mean? Who would send that message? Solve the staging and you solve the murder. The staging is very important. 5. Who had access to the amount of personal information needed to pull this double murder off? I’ll keep you posted as things unfold.

    Ok. Have listened to both episodes and the comments. I live in Toronto and know a lot about this case so I"m just going to throw stuff out there to address things in the episodes and the comments that I can answer.

    1. Both Barry and Honey's cars were parked in the driveway when their bodies were discovered. It looks like Honey went in the back / side door and Barry went in the front door. No one was taken, attacked or surprised in garage because they didn't park there or enter there. My understanding is that they often just left the cars in the long circular driveway.

    2. There were no gates to the house. Barry hated using the alarm. Barry also was a privacy junkie and shredded everything. He would never have let there be cameras in the house. Any cameras on the house were only outside and were not running at the time. The alarm was not set or on when the crime happened.

    3. The murder suicide rumours were started when the press arrived on scene on Dec 15th. The scene was being guarded by the patrol guys who had been called and arrived first. They, and a few other beat cops, were in front of the house protecting the crime scene. One of them said to a reporter that there were 2 bodies and no forced entry. The reporter ran with murder suicide. The first investigators had to figure out what had happened in the house. They called in the homicide division pretty quickly. On the 17th, after the autopsies had been completed, the coroner released cause of death for both Honey and Barry – “ligature neck compression”. Homicide and the rest of the cops were calling the deaths "suspicious". January 20th, the PIs who had been hired by the family released their theory that there had to have been more than 1 killer. The police used the word “suspicious” until their press conference on January 26th at which time the lead homicide detective said that the deaths were now being considered as "a targeted double homicide".

    4. Honey's face had signs of violence and they found a little bit of blood on the front of her clothes. There was also a bigger pool of blood under her body. It looked like her lip was split and she had also bled from her nose. The theory is that the pool of blood was probably created when Honey struggled and had to be turned over, face down on the tiles, which accounts for not much blood on her clothes but a small pool of blood underneath her.

    5. They were found by the real estate agent who had brought in another agent and a couple to view the house. She prevented everyone from entering the pool area when she saw the bodies and she called the police. Honey's trainer showed up at the house right after for his regular scheduled appointment. Then the first police arrived and they called for backup.

    6. They believed that they were killed late on December 13th or early in the morning on December 14th. They believe this because they were both wearing the same clothes they wore on December 13th when they were last seen. And because when they found the bodies, they were limp, meaning that rigor had already happened and passed. They may have been left in the pool area to mess with time of death. If the pool was heated and the room was heated, it would be hot and humid which would cause rigor mortis to set in sooner. The room is surrounded by glass and if they were not using the pool, the heat may have been low and the room could have been considerably cooler which would have delayed rigor. It is commonly held that rigor sets in about 4-7 hours after death. Rigor is then released anywhere between 24-48 hours post mortem and the body becomes flabby and decomposition begins. When they were found and rigor had come and gone. I’m guessing the room was heated, (or the heat was turned on by the killers) which would have sped up the process but that still means they had to have been dead for 36 hours. So night or early morning of the 13th/14th.

    7. Fear not! There is a beer connection! Barry had lent money to a guy in the beverage business. The company was failing and the owner lost any physical assets in the failure to Barry. Barry then backed his son Jonathon, (Jon,) to run Steelback breweries, one of the companies in the group of failing companies. The brewery was founded in 2002 by the original owner. Jon Sherman took over running the brewery in May 2008. In very early 2010 all employees were let go and they started to sell their equipment. This was the end of Steelback breweries. Just as a side note, one can assume from the quick failure and closure that Barry was not willing to give his son any more money to run the brewery, even as he was giving away $50 million dollars to universities and hospitals. How does the son feel about that?

    8. Before you jump all over the Toronto cops – who actually are pretty great, (watch how they took down the suspect who killed 10 people driving on the sidewalk), let me give you more info on the investigation. The homicide detectives locked down any information leaks as soon as they were on scene. They called the deaths suspicious. They immediately asked for and were granted many “covert” search warrants and production orders. They were talking to all suspects, or people who might have knowledge or be connected to the case, including Kerry Rivers, the cousin. What this means is we don’t have a lot of insight into what they have collected and where they collected it from and even the people they have talked to. It does tell us they acted very quickly after the discovery of the bodies to get these covert things in place and going while letting the public spin on thinking it was a murder suicide. They may know who killed them and not yet have the evidence to support the charge. And they may have things in place to collect evidence that will build their case. We can only know how well the cops performed when they release full information or a killer/s is arrested and found guilty. Right now, I think the cops are being very smart.

    9. At the Police press conference on January 26th, the lead detective, Det. Sgt. Susan Gomes,
    said they investigated three possibilities - that the Shermans’ deaths were a double suicide, a murder-suicide or a double homicide. They were very thorough in going through all the evidence before drawing the conclusion that it was a “targeted double homicide.” In truth, they knew it was a double homicide as soon as they saw the scene but they needed to exhaust all possibilities. So homicide immediately started to act on that theory, while other groups of cops chased down the 2 other possibilities so all bases were covered.

    10. Kerry River is bat-shit crazy. He is currently being assessed to determine if he has a mental “disability” that would prevent him from representing himself in his appeal for one-fifth of the Apotex founder’s riches. The people that have requested this evaluation is not the prosecution, but his siblings and his lawyers. The request for evaluation contains this wording, “Kerry Winter is unable to self-represent or instruct counsel, appreciate the reasonably foreseeable consequences of his decisions and the issues which are relevant to this proceeding and is at serious risk of relapse because of his mental disability which has been exacerbated as a result of this proceeding.” He could not have pulled this off, and a professional would never have worked with him because of the crazy factor. If he had anything to do with it. He would have already “indivertibly” told someone. Don’t for a minute think that he wasn’t looked at early and hard. He can remember he was questioned but he isn’t totally sure if it were once or twice. This guy, as well as his brother and sister-in-law, had a better chance of getting some cash with Barry alive, not dead. Again, he fried his brain for years on drugs. He is just not capable of committing or engineering this kind of crime.

    11. I’m going to simplify this so everyone can understand what happened with the companies but first you need to understand what was going on in the family. Barry Sherman’s dad died when he was 10. He started to spend weekends, holidays and Sundays running deliveries for his Uncle Louis, (his mother’s brother,) who owned Empire. In 1965, Louis and his wife had 4 young boys (Dana, Jeff, Kerry and Timothy) and were living in Toronto. She had leukemia and they knew she was dying. Then 17 days before she died, Louis suffered a surprise aneurism and dies. Louis’ wife had not been born Jewish. She converted to marry Louis. Her brother wanted and was prepared to take the 4 boys and raise them when she died. She did not want this as she wanted them to be raised Jewish and so before she died, she arranged for a young successful Jewish couple to adopt the kids, now that Louis was dead. The oldest boy was seven and the youngest was 2. When she died, this is what happened, and Barry lost track of the cousins until the late 1980s.

    12. Barry was at MIT when his Uncle Louis died. A group of trustees were appointed to run Empire. Barry tried to buy Empire several times but the trustees kept turning him down. Barry then approached them with evidence that the company was failing under their leadership and so the trustees agreed to the sale. As part of the sale, an option was included with the sale that said Empire (company A) would after any of the cousins had turned 21 or completed their formal education be given a position at Empire. In addition, if they worked at Empire for greater than 2 years, they could buy up to 5% of the shares. The deal goes through and now Barry and his partner own Empire, Company A. In 1972, ICN Pharmaceuticals (Company B) bought Empire which netted Barry and his partner, a couple thousand dollars each. When Company B bought A, the option that was in place for the cousins, expires and is no longer enforceable. A year later, Barry founded Apotex (Company C) on his own. And the company took off.

    13. In 1988, Dana and Barry were reconnected. At this time, Dana and Kerry were drug addicts and had been for a while and Jeffery had been diagnosed as bipolar and was in and out of treatment. These 3 cousins Kerry, Dana and Jeff, started to ask Barry for help. Tim never asked Sherman for a thing and today is a chef. From an article in Toronto Life, “Barry bankrolled three of the Winter children in their ventures. Dana started a jewelry business; Jeff moved from a travel company into custom CDs; Kerry launched a construction company. Barry bought them homes and cottages, paid Visa bills and gave out allowances, lending millions on dubious security. Behind his back, Dana called him “Bank Sherman.”’ Barry also paid for multiple stints in rehab for Dana and Kerry. In 1995, Dana fell back into drugs, got involved in a bad situation and was facing conspiracy charges in the murder of another drug dealer. Barry paid Dana’s bond and while Dana was out on bond, he overdosed and died. At this time, Barry was still supporting the two other cousins and Kerry was getting an allowance of $20,000 a month. Kerry, Jeff and Julia (Dana’s widow) looked into the sale of Empire and decided they had been cheated out of their legacy. Despite, everyone telling them they had no case and should just accept what Barry was doing for them, in 2007 these 3 filed suit against Barry for a billion dollars. Barry felt betrayed and so he called in the loans, took back what he had given to the cousins and refused a settlement offer. This is when the 10 year lawsuit was launched. The cousins argued that Barry could never have started Apotex without the money from the sale of Empire. In September 2017, a couple months before Barry was murdered, a judge dismissed the case and required the litigious 3 to pay back $300,000 in legal fees.

    14. So to wrap up the cousins saga – Barry bought Empire and included protection for Louis’ sons. When Company B bought Empire, the option protecting Louis’ sons became unenforceable. Despite having no legal obligations to the cousins, when they were reconnected, Barry was very generous with them. They then turned around and sued him for a billion dollars. The legal stuff continues and the cousins are appealing the dismissal so they can refile the suit and try to get money from the estate.

    15. Barry was well liked within the walls of Apotex, but outside of Apotex he was widely loathed. For the entirety of Apotex existence, there have always been multiple legal disputes going on. Barry always pushed the limits and often pushed beyond them beyond. He ruined careers, was involved in price fixing, and violated patents and probably other things as well. He was also believed to have connections and work with known criminals. When he was murdered, he literally has some or all ownership in dozens, if not hundreds of companies.

    16. For the Captain, with regard to the car – Barry and, to a lesser degree, Honey remained spendthrifts. They flew economy, Barry wore his clothes until they were so bad Honey had to throw them out. And Barry believed that you drove a car until it would go no further and then you bought another modest car and did the same. On his 50th birthday, Honey bought him a red sports car. Barry made Honey take it back and he kept driving the dinged-up wreck of a car that he had then.

    17. My thoughts & hypothesis on the murders:
    - The killer/s were known to them. I would not be surprised if they were just let into the home. I don’t think the lockbox is a factor one way or another.
    - The killers knew about and likely had previously been in the house. It was exceedingly well planned.
    - Like Nik was saying, it wasn’t just Barry who was killed, it was also Honey. Honey being murdered alongside Barry changes the equation. If it was just Barry who was murdered, Honey would have taken over management of the company and she would have inherited all the money.
    - This murder was only possible with insider information and it was meticulously done, leaving almost no clues or traces.
    - The killer/s would most likely have killed before, given the sophistication and planning of the murder.
    - There were drag marks on the carpet, the thought being that at some point they had to drag Honey to get her to the basement.
    - I believe that Honey’s face was injured at the location where they were found.
    - We don’t know if they were killed by strangulation and then hung or they died in the hanging. I lean towards them dying in the hanging. Regardless, it would have been an exceedingly painful and terror filled death for each of them. They would have slowly suffocated because of the belts. They would have known they were dying and known that the other was dying too.
    - There is a message in the staging. The staging means something to the killer/s. Staging them the way they did would have taken time and they would have been at higher risk of being discovered and of inadvertently leaving clues behind the longer they were in the house. That risk was one they were willing to take to make sure the bodies were staged the way they were.
    - This murder is deeply personal to the killer/s. He/she wanted to see them suffer and wanted them to know it was him/her that was killing them. They were likely on scene for the murder.
    - This killer/s are not likely going to be overheard on a bar stool drunkenly bragging about the crime. They are way too smart.

    So I think the key to solving this crime lies in being able to answer the following questions:
    1. Why were Barry AND Honey killed together and not just Barry, or not just Honey?
    2. What is gained and who gains it when Barry and Honey die together?
    3. Were they both meant to die that night or did something change? i.e. Honey could have hired someone and then the murderer killed her too to leave no trace. Or vice versa.
    4. What is the message in the staging? What does it mean? Who would send that message? Solve the staging and you solve the murder. The staging is very important.
    5. Who had access to the amount of personal information needed to pull this double murder off?

    I’ll keep you posted as things unfold.

  • Bill

    Bill Toronto

    Here's some food for thought regarding Bernard and Honey Sherman and their questionable deaths. Read up on Frank D'Angelo, there is a connection. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_D'Angelo

    Here's some food for thought regarding Bernard and Honey Sherman and their questionable deaths.
    Read up on Frank D'Angelo, there is a connection. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_D'Angelo

  • John

    John WI

    This case had a hard time getting off the ground. Much of the first episode was establishing the crime scene, none of which made sense. A 3ft tool railing hanged two people in a seated position. I still can't grasp that mentally. Jackets and belts and shirts Just seemed like a lot of info without direction. Unsolved cases are tricky on TCG. They really require a lot of meat to chew on. For instance the Indiana girls. This one, I wasn't pulled in. I love the guys and I will always listen. Really thankful for the Stitcher freebies.

    This case had a hard time getting off the ground. Much of the first episode was establishing the crime scene, none of which made sense. A 3ft tool railing hanged two people in a seated position. I still can't grasp that mentally. Jackets and belts and shirts Just seemed like a lot of info without direction.

    Unsolved cases are tricky on TCG. They really require a lot of meat to chew on. For instance the Indiana girls. This one, I wasn't pulled in.

    I love the guys and I will always listen. Really thankful for the Stitcher freebies.

  • Dave

    Dave PA

    So a guy who was born into money gets a coke habit .. then he stops and gets 6 years clean .. but you are still talking about him like he's actively using. Fuck You

    So a guy who was born into money gets a coke habit .. then he stops and gets 6 years clean .. but you are still talking about him like he's actively using.

    Fuck You

  • Reb

    Reb DC

    Another great episode - I had completely forgotten about this case and appreciate you brining it back to the forefront. A couple of things: 1. I'm not sure I buy the serious prefessional hit - it would be so much easier to fake a burglary than to fake a murder-suicide, especially one this sloppy. 2. I am really fascinated about her missing her charity meeting. I absolutely agree that the heavy presumption that the husband was the primary target seemed warranted and glad you pointed out other angles. Given a pretty aberrant act on her side, it really makes one wonder. 3. By all accounts (except the cousins, of course) these were lovely, civic-minded, giving members of their community. I thought the Capitan's gratuitous swipe that government leaders were only there at the funeral because they were donors was unfair to the good role these two had played in Canadian civil life. (Especially if he was even slightly aware of the significant and draconian (in my mind) restrictions that the Canadian system places on individual contributions in elections.)

    Another great episode - I had completely forgotten about this case and appreciate you brining it back to the forefront. A couple of things:
    1. I'm not sure I buy the serious prefessional hit - it would be so much easier to fake a burglary than to fake a murder-suicide, especially one this sloppy.
    2. I am really fascinated about her missing her charity meeting. I absolutely agree that the heavy presumption that the husband was the primary target seemed warranted and glad you pointed out other angles. Given a pretty aberrant act on her side, it really makes one wonder.
    3. By all accounts (except the cousins, of course) these were lovely, civic-minded, giving members of their community. I thought the Capitan's gratuitous swipe that government leaders were only there at the funeral because they were donors was unfair to the good role these two had played in Canadian civil life. (Especially if he was even slightly aware of the significant and draconian (in my mind) restrictions that the Canadian system places on individual contributions in elections.)

  • Jessica

    Jessica Boston

    Bill - great synopsis. I completely agree with your conclusions. Whoever the killer was knew Barry AND Honey and wanted them both dead, and planned and executed the crime very, very carefully. Barry’s business dealings are so far-flung and complex, it is going to take TPS ages to get through all of his dealings, some of which were with questionable characters. I’m very curious to see whether they are ever able to pin it on someone.

    Bill - great synopsis. I completely agree with your conclusions. Whoever the killer was knew Barry AND Honey and wanted them both dead, and planned and executed the crime very, very carefully. Barry’s business dealings are so far-flung and complex, it is going to take TPS ages to get through all of his dealings, some of which were with questionable characters. I’m very curious to see whether they are ever able to pin it on someone.

  • Louise H

    Louise H Michigan

    Great job covering this case guys. Before I moved to the US, I spent 19 years in the TO area and still have lots of family there. My mom told me about this case and I've been following it ever since. I was going to add a few things but Anonymous did a better and more thorough job than I would have. I will however disagree with Anon about the TO police department and Canadian police in general. I'm sorry but they are no FBI or Scotland Yard. There are many prominent cases that go unsolved in the area and I'm skeptical about their ability to solve this one. I hope I'm proven wrong.

    Great job covering this case guys. Before I moved to the US, I spent 19 years in the TO area and still have lots of family there. My mom told me about this case and I've been following it ever since. I was going to add a few things but Anonymous did a better and more thorough job than I would have. I will however disagree with Anon about the TO police department and Canadian police in general. I'm sorry but they are no FBI or Scotland Yard. There are many prominent cases that go unsolved in the area and I'm skeptical about their ability to solve this one. I hope I'm proven wrong.

  • Anonymous

    Anonymous

    Really enjoy listening to you guys, have been listening now for about 6 months. Thanks for doing what you do! I feel there is very little chance this was a murder/suicide. Killer likely someone who had lots to gain from both of their deaths. Also, would Love for you guys to do a show on the deaths of David Crowley and family which was ultimately determined murder/suicide. This case still gets me looking for more info to state otherwise. Too many things that don’t add up. I am also one to delve into conspiracy theories. There is a Netflix doc on it called Grey State.

    Really enjoy listening to you guys, have been listening now for about 6 months. Thanks for doing what you do!
    I feel there is very little chance this was a murder/suicide. Killer likely someone who had lots to gain from both of their deaths.
    Also, would Love for you guys to do a show on the deaths of David Crowley and family which was ultimately determined murder/suicide. This case still gets me looking for more info to state otherwise. Too many things that don’t add up. I am also one to delve into conspiracy theories. There is a Netflix doc on it called Grey State.

  • Mark

    Mark tX

    What boggles my mind is that a $6.9 million house, that was still being lived in, had a key lock-box! That makes no sense! Those boxes are so easy to open. Moreover, you are giving people free reign to the house of a billionaire. I know we are talking about Canada, but still, you got to have some security precautions. Bizarre method of murder by someone who I am guessing was hired by someone close to the business or family. Not a professional, but maybe someone in need of money. Open investigations just don't yield much meat on the bone.

    What boggles my mind is that a $6.9 million house, that was still being lived in, had a key lock-box! That makes no sense! Those boxes are so easy to open. Moreover, you are giving people free reign to the house of a billionaire. I know we are talking about Canada, but still, you got to have some security precautions. Bizarre method of murder by someone who I am guessing was hired by someone close to the business or family. Not a professional, but maybe someone in need of money. Open investigations just don't yield much meat on the bone.

  • Hannah

    Hannah Pennsylvania

    Two quick thoughts- the hit was planned on Barry, but also Honey, because they didn't want to risk her taking over the company. Also, I would think the bruising on Honey's face was done when she arrived first. They surprised her and maybe wanted to knock her out so she wasn't in the way when Barry got home? Either way, I see her being beaten more because they had to control her so they were ready when Barry came. Barry would have probably been emotional when he saw Honey and tried to comply with the hitmen. Great job on this case and thank you for the best true crime podcast!

    Two quick thoughts- the hit was planned on Barry, but also Honey, because they didn't want to risk her taking over the company.

    Also, I would think the bruising on Honey's face was done when she arrived first. They surprised her and maybe wanted to knock her out so she wasn't in the way when Barry got home? Either way, I see her being beaten more because they had to control her so they were ready when Barry came. Barry would have probably been emotional when he saw Honey and tried to comply with the hitmen.

    Great job on this case and thank you for the best true crime podcast!

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    At Anon, Thanks for the Netflix recommendation. Cheers Nic

    At Anon,
    Thanks for the Netflix recommendation.
    Cheers Nic

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