Cameron Todd Willingham /// 352 /// 353

28 comments

  • Jennifer

    Jennifer Michigan

    So the 3 "V" patterns and the skull and demon posters make me believe the jail house snitch. The 3 "V" could be part of a pentagram.

    So the 3 "V" patterns and the skull and demon posters make me believe the jail house snitch. The 3 "V" could be part of a pentagram.

  • Nick Green

    Nick Green

    Why didn’t you talk about the oldest child found in the master bed under the covers? Wasn’t she the one that ”called out” to him?

    Why didn’t you talk about the oldest child found in the master bed under the covers? Wasn’t she the one that ”called out” to him?

  • Martin

    Martin Birmingham, England

    Just wanted to say how much I have enjoyed the show over the last 6 weeks or so. Excellent cases and you two seem to have found your form again. Please keep it up! Cheers

    Just wanted to say how much I have enjoyed the show over the last 6 weeks or so. Excellent cases and you two seem to have found your form again.
    Please keep it up! Cheers

  • Michelle

    Michelle NY

    You guys really took on a tough case this week. I have been studying the Willingham case and fire science for months in conjunction with a project I have at work. I think you both did a really good job with explaining the story and how the events unfolded. You guys really drove home an important point about the arson investigators responsibility as well. I wanted to add my insight. First off, Todd was an asshole. We can all agree on that. Let's talk about fire science and experts. All of the "experts" in Todd's case were wrong -- both on the prosecution side and the defense side. Nic, I felt like you were giving the arson investigators a little too much benefit of the doubt at the end of the second episode. I give them no benefit of the doubt, and that goes for the lawyers as well. The arson "experts" methods were flawed and outdated, and their unwillingness or inability to educate themselves on the evolving methods in their field of expertise was irresponsible and unprofessional. I do not believe that the investigators were acting maliciously towards Todd; however, I do believe that their arrogance was an enormous part of the outcome of Todd's trial. As a lawyer, I have to sit for a certain number of credits every year so I can register and keep my law license. Those classes deal with new law that I am expected to learn and put it into practice. I am required to do this. The arson experts, from my research, did not have similar requirements to keep their expert status -- this led to situations in multiple cases where the "experts" could ignore the new methods grounded in science and fall back on old ways. They were derelict in their duty to present a qualified expert opinion and the lawyers were irresponsible for not learning or knowing enough about the advancements in fire science to challenge the experts to ensure they were presenting correct information (ethics, anyone?), especially when the stakes -- three deceased children and a man's life -- was on the line. To give a little bit of the benefit of the doubt back, I recognize that this occurred in the early 1990's, a time without the internet, 24/7 true crime TV and podcasts, and a public that did not have the heightened awareness that we have today. Look at Todd's case alongside other cases and incidents from that time period (Ernest Ray Willis, the Lime Street Fire, William Vasquez, Amaury Villalobos and Raymond Mora, etc.). While the investigators during that time did not have the same technology and access that we do today, they still had the ability to do better. And they didn't. And because of that, the innocent and the victims suffered. The system is broken, and we may not be able to fix it entirely. However, we do have the ability to acknowledge the mistakes of the past and right those wrongs, instead of hiding behind political agendas, ego, arrogance or greed. I believe that it starts with people, like your listeners.

    You guys really took on a tough case this week. I have been studying the Willingham case and fire science for months in conjunction with a project I have at work. I think you both did a really good job with explaining the story and how the events unfolded. You guys really drove home an important point about the arson investigators responsibility as well. I wanted to add my insight.

    First off, Todd was an asshole. We can all agree on that.

    Let's talk about fire science and experts. All of the "experts" in Todd's case were wrong -- both on the prosecution side and the defense side. Nic, I felt like you were giving the arson investigators a little too much benefit of the doubt at the end of the second episode. I give them no benefit of the doubt, and that goes for the lawyers as well. The arson "experts" methods were flawed and outdated, and their unwillingness or inability to educate themselves on the evolving methods in their field of expertise was irresponsible and unprofessional. I do not believe that the investigators were acting maliciously towards Todd; however, I do believe that their arrogance was an enormous part of the outcome of Todd's trial. As a lawyer, I have to sit for a certain number of credits every year so I can register and keep my law license. Those classes deal with new law that I am expected to learn and put it into practice. I am required to do this. The arson experts, from my research, did not have similar requirements to keep their expert status -- this led to situations in multiple cases where the "experts" could ignore the new methods grounded in science and fall back on old ways. They were derelict in their duty to present a qualified expert opinion and the lawyers were irresponsible for not learning or knowing enough about the advancements in fire science to challenge the experts to ensure they were presenting correct information (ethics, anyone?), especially when the stakes -- three deceased children and a man's life -- was on the line.

    To give a little bit of the benefit of the doubt back, I recognize that this occurred in the early 1990's, a time without the internet, 24/7 true crime TV and podcasts, and a public that did not have the heightened awareness that we have today. Look at Todd's case alongside other cases and incidents from that time period (Ernest Ray Willis, the Lime Street Fire, William Vasquez, Amaury Villalobos and Raymond Mora, etc.). While the investigators during that time did not have the same technology and access that we do today, they still had the ability to do better. And they didn't. And because of that, the innocent and the victims suffered.

    The system is broken, and we may not be able to fix it entirely. However, we do have the ability to acknowledge the mistakes of the past and right those wrongs, instead of hiding behind political agendas, ego, arrogance or greed. I believe that it starts with people, like your listeners.

  • Jules

    Jules VIC, Australia

    Congratulations on an outstanding episode. I really appreciate your ability to separate the issues around the system from the case in question and how much we may dislike the man at the heart of the case. A really intelligent and thoughtful telling and reflection of the case. A case of beer to you sirs!

    Congratulations on an outstanding episode. I really appreciate your ability to separate the issues around the system from the case in question and how much we may dislike the man at the heart of the case. A really intelligent and thoughtful telling and reflection of the case. A case of beer to you sirs!

  • Nicole

    Nicole Miami

    I'm curious about two things that were never fully explained: 1. WHY was the refrigerator moved to block the backdoor if this was an accidental fire? 2. In Cameron's statement he said that his daughter Amber yelled for him and he told her to run to the front door but then later she was found dead under his bed and the assumption was that she was actually sleeping in his room. I can see how both can be true; her yelling to her dad and him telling her to run as he left the room to find the kids, but what doesn't make sense is why didn't he just grab her as he was leaving the room and get her out of the house? So many questions that don't follow the "accidental fire" theory even though the arson theory was practically debunked by science. This case is certainly a head scratcher but Nic was right; Either those kids were murdered or an innocent man was put to death. A tragedy any way you go. :(

    I'm curious about two things that were never fully explained:

    1. WHY was the refrigerator moved to block the backdoor if this was an accidental fire?

    2. In Cameron's statement he said that his daughter Amber yelled for him and he told her to run to the front door but then later she was found dead under his bed and the assumption was that she was actually sleeping in his room. I can see how both can be true; her yelling to her dad and him telling her to run as he left the room to find the kids, but what doesn't make sense is why didn't he just grab her as he was leaving the room and get her out of the house?

    So many questions that don't follow the "accidental fire" theory even though the arson theory was practically debunked by science. This case is certainly a head scratcher but Nic was right; Either those kids were murdered or an innocent man was put to death. A tragedy any way you go. frown

  • Buster

    Buster SSP, MN

    Ohhh if only we had a Brave Feminist (like the Captain) near-by when this fire broke out! We need one in every department just to save lives no matter the 1,200 degree heat. He’ll run right in and be damned iof burning the walls or furniture! He’d have got all the kids out when their dad, the Coward, was too busy crying to be of any help. What the hell was he thinking waiting for the professionals with their fireproof suits and breathing apparatus???

    Ohhh if only we had a Brave Feminist (like the Captain) near-by when this fire broke out! We need one in every department just to save lives no matter the 1,200 degree heat. He’ll run right in and be damned iof burning the walls or furniture! He’d have got all the kids out when their dad, the Coward, was too busy crying to be of any help. What the hell was he thinking waiting for the professionals with their fireproof suits and breathing apparatus???

  • mG

    mG

    He was convicted for irrelevant things that prejudiced an East Texas jury. Playing loud music when visiting the remains, heavy metal posters etc.. Prejudicial materials instead of actual physical evidence. When in doubt play up "Satanic Panic" and get a jailhouse snitch.

    He was convicted for irrelevant things that prejudiced an East Texas jury. Playing loud music when visiting the remains, heavy metal posters etc.. Prejudicial materials instead of actual physical evidence. When in doubt play up "Satanic Panic" and get a jailhouse snitch.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Hi Nick - we did state both - Todd said Amber called out to him and she was found in the master bedroom. We could have discussed this point much more. This was a tough case to squeeze into just 2 episodes but our current case schedule requires it. Thank you Nick for pointing this out. Thanks to everyone who has posted. This is a tragic and sad case but one that inspires much discussion. Cheers Nic

    Hi Nick - we did state both - Todd said Amber called out to him and she was found in the master bedroom. We could have discussed this point much more. This was a tough case to squeeze into just 2 episodes but our current case schedule requires it. Thank you Nick for pointing this out. Thanks to everyone who has posted. This is a tragic and sad case but one that inspires much discussion.
    Cheers Nic

  • Michelle

    Michelle Belton, MO

    I don't know if I believe that Todd did this or not. He was definitely a POS, but just don't know if he was also a murderer. The thing that really jumped out at me was that only 13 years passed between the fire and when he was executed. That seems like a short amount of time for investigation, arrest, trial, conviction, sentencing appeals etc. There are more obviously guilty people that have been sitting on death row for a lot longer than that. Great episode, I had never heard of this case and thought you guys did a great job covering it.

    I don't know if I believe that Todd did this or not. He was definitely a POS, but just don't know if he was also a murderer.
    The thing that really jumped out at me was that only 13 years passed between the fire and when he was executed. That seems like a short amount of time for investigation, arrest, trial, conviction, sentencing appeals etc. There are more obviously guilty people that have been sitting on death row for a lot longer than that.
    Great episode, I had never heard of this case and thought you guys did a great job covering it.

  • Amy

    Amy KCMO

    the fact that this dude beat his pregnant wife, the fridge was blocking the door, and that he was more concerned about his car than his kids all make me think he def could have done it. unfortunately we may never know. UGH those poor children! keep up the good work guys! also agree w Michelle the lawyer- i have worked in the legal field for 12 years and i still cant believe attorneys are required to take CLE classes to keep their license but experts arent! what the heck!

    the fact that this dude beat his pregnant wife, the fridge was blocking the door, and that he was more concerned about his car than his kids all make me think he def could have done it. unfortunately we may never know. UGH those poor children! keep up the good work guys!

    also agree w Michelle the lawyer- i have worked in the legal field for 12 years and i still cant believe attorneys are required to take CLE classes to keep their license but experts arent! what the heck!

  • Reb

    Reb DC

    Good evening , Gentleman - I almost didn't listen to this episode because this case makes me want to hide in the back of my closet with a bottle of bourbon knowing how quickly that a person can lose everything and then be horribly railroaded. He might have not have been the most sympathetic person in the world, but he was executed for a situation where there was literally NO CRIME committed. You did a great job with this. These were struggling people and the pressure cooker of small town rumors and hideous state-wide politics let the state kill him. Tip to your hat on this and may we all just be grateful something completely horrible happen to any of us.

    Good evening , Gentleman - I almost didn't listen to this episode because this case makes me want to hide in the back of my closet with a bottle of bourbon knowing how quickly that a person can lose everything and then be horribly railroaded.
    He might have not have been the most sympathetic person in the world, but he was executed for a situation where there was literally NO CRIME committed.
    You did a great job with this. These were struggling people and the pressure cooker of small town rumors and hideous state-wide politics let the state kill him.
    Tip to your hat on this and may we all just be grateful something completely horrible happen to any of us.

  • AliB

    AliB Virginia

    I wonder if Amber did call out to her Dad but when discovered there was no safe way out then went to the master bedroom and died there. Kind of like how animals will hide during a fire rather then try to escape. She was very young. What a sad and heartbreaking case all around.

    I wonder if Amber did call out to her Dad but when discovered there was no safe way out then went to the master bedroom and died there. Kind of like how animals will hide during a fire rather then try to escape. She was very young. What a sad and heartbreaking case all around.

  • Stacy

    Stacy Melville, NY

    This case was just sad for so many reasons. Todd was definitely not a stand up guy but also probably didn’t set the fire. I also thought it was strange where Amber was found. But then again we know his story was made up because he was ashamed of not having the guts to get them out. But here is the other thing I thought which was a small part of these 2 episodes but stood out to me... Why would the grandfather have life insurance policies on those kids ,???? Who does that?? That was so odd to me. I know this isn’t really a factor in the case but still WTF ?? My only thought would be maybe he was also a savings account of some kind for them but still !

    This case was just sad for so many reasons. Todd was definitely not a stand up guy but also probably didn’t set the fire. I also thought it was strange where Amber was found. But then again we know his story was made up because he was ashamed of not having the guts to get them out. But here is the other thing I thought which was a small part of these 2 episodes but stood out to me...
    Why would the grandfather have life insurance policies on those kids ,???? Who does that?? That was so odd to me. I know this isn’t really a factor in the case but still WTF ?? My only thought would be maybe he was also a savings account of some kind for them but still !

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    @ Michelle - yes I agree that is an incredibly fast arrest to execution timeline. We went into this probably a hundred or more episodes ago and in it's own regard - its pretty interesting. Texas who we all currently identify as being the execution express lane state. This is because back in the 80's was totally the opposite of this. Back then the Texas prisons were incredibly over populated. So to fix this they started releasing non-violent offenders. After that the prisons were still crowded so then they let out violent offenders and then murders. Yes, murders - that's crazy but it happened. Some of those killers went on to kill again most notably the Broom Stick Killer. This obviously was a horrible mistake so to correct this.... make sure the prisons don't over crowd and not to release killers - now they execute with the quickness. Check out our old episodes on the Yogurt shop murders - this talks about this scenario

    @ Michelle - yes I agree that is an incredibly fast arrest to execution timeline. We went into this probably a hundred or more episodes ago and in it's own regard - its pretty interesting. Texas who we all currently identify as being the execution express lane state. This is because back in the 80's was totally the opposite of this. Back then the Texas prisons were incredibly over populated. So to fix this they started releasing non-violent offenders. After that the prisons were still crowded so then they let out violent offenders and then murders. Yes, murders - that's crazy but it happened. Some of those killers went on to kill again most notably the Broom Stick Killer. This obviously was a horrible mistake so to correct this.... make sure the prisons don't over crowd and not to release killers - now they execute with the quickness. Check out our old episodes on the Yogurt shop murders - this talks about this scenario

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    @ Stacy - I know that does sound weird. I don't know what type of policy it is but I know those Gerber plans that are both a college plan and life insurance plan at the same time. These days they do advertise these plans to the grandparents as it is something the grandparent can buy for both the grandkid and their own child. - Nic

    @ Stacy - I know that does sound weird. I don't know what type of policy it is but I know those Gerber plans that are both a college plan and life insurance plan at the same time. These days they do advertise these plans to the grandparents as it is something the grandparent can buy for both the grandkid and their own child.
    - Nic

  • Rachel

    Rachel O-H-I-O

    I would just like to make a comment about the car: to me, it is indicative of him not planning the fire. If it was planned, he would most likely have made sure he moved the car prior to setting the fire. Also, last year at this time, my mom's garage caught on fire. Her van was parked in the driveway, backed in. When the fire department couldn't control the fire quickly enough, her van caught on fire. The department couldn't get inside so they quickly evacuated all the fire fighters from the property except the one poor shmuck who had to put the hook on the front end in order for the wench to pull the car forward. In the end, the back 50% of the car was crispy like a colonel :) They said that had she been pulled in front way, the whole thing would have exploded. My point is, while you will never, ever in a million years find me defending this guy on any other subject, I dont think the car thing means he only cared about the car. I think it was fast acting common sense to make sure the situation did not escalate.

    I would just like to make a comment about the car: to me, it is indicative of him not planning the fire. If it was planned, he would most likely have made sure he moved the car prior to setting the fire. Also, last year at this time, my mom's garage caught on fire. Her van was parked in the driveway, backed in. When the fire department couldn't control the fire quickly enough, her van caught on fire. The department couldn't get inside so they quickly evacuated all the fire fighters from the property except the one poor shmuck who had to put the hook on the front end in order for the wench to pull the car forward. In the end, the back 50% of the car was crispy like a colonel smile They said that had she been pulled in front way, the whole thing would have exploded. My point is, while you will never, ever in a million years find me defending this guy on any other subject, I dont think the car thing means he only cared about the car. I think it was fast acting common sense to make sure the situation did not escalate.

  • joe

    joe dirt

    Good episode here. Confused by the tool, i mean Buster's, response. Are you saying it is totally ok to stand outside the burning home while you know your children are inside burning alive? That's what a real man does right? Either you don't have children or you are a coward, just like this guy. Either way, glad you aren't my dad.

    Good episode here. Confused by the tool, i mean Buster's, response. Are you saying it is totally ok to stand outside the burning home while you know your children are inside burning alive? That's what a real man does right? Either you don't have children or you are a coward, just like this guy. Either way, glad you aren't my dad.

  • Robert

    Robert Texas

    I enjoyed your podcast on this case.i live in Corsicana Tx.and was here when this happened.i knew him a little.i knew Stacy a lot better.if you could read the letters he wrote to her while in prison.you would not believe what he said in his letters.ill try to get ahold of her.and ask permission.to share them with you.i can email them.anyway love your podcast.

    I enjoyed your podcast on this case.i live in Corsicana Tx.and was here when this happened.i knew him a little.i knew Stacy a lot better.if you could read the letters he wrote to her while in prison.you would not believe what he said in his letters.ill try to get ahold of her.and ask permission.to share them with you.i can email them.anyway love your podcast.

  • stacywillingham

    stacywillingham Texas

    Cameron todd Willingham did murdered my daughters that I know! I was filling for a divorce after Christmas so todd believed in his sick mind that if he took the girls from me that I wouldn't leave him. Your all right he is a POS murdered. Your more than welcome to visit my Facebook page that I started for my daughters because I was sick of others defending a man that murdered my daughters. Stacy Willingham from Dallas I'm sure you will find some of your answers on my page for my daughters.

    Cameron todd Willingham did murdered my daughters that I know! I was filling for a divorce after Christmas so todd believed in his sick mind that if he took the girls from me that I wouldn't leave him. Your all right he is a POS murdered. Your more than welcome to visit my Facebook page that I started for my daughters because I was sick of others defending a man that murdered my daughters. Stacy Willingham from Dallas I'm sure you will find some of your answers on my page for my daughters.

  • Jake

    Jake Canada

    You guys ever look into the Robert Fisher case? He killed his family burnt the house down with them inside and left back in 2001 and he disappeared its a pretty interesting story

    You guys ever look into the Robert Fisher case?
    He killed his family burnt the house down with them inside and left back in 2001 and he disappeared its a pretty interesting story

  • d davis

    d davis AL

    Interesting and very reminiscent of the Dr. Jeffrey McDonald case. Very similar in that one of the principle problems is one of motive. On the one hand it is possible to believe that there so people so selfish that they will kill their children in order to escape the burden that a family places on their lifestyle, on the other you have the testimony of many that he appeared to be very attached to his children. It is also very revealing about the limitation of "expert" witnesses which are often little more that hired guns. I for example lost interest in John Douglas for his Jon-Benet Ramsey profile, and Henry Lee for his testimony in the O J Simpson trial where he claimed to discover a second set of footprints at the crime scene which turned out to have been footprints embedded in the concrete which had been there since the home was built.

    Interesting and very reminiscent of the Dr. Jeffrey McDonald case. Very similar in that one of the principle problems is one of motive. On the one hand it is possible to believe that there so people so selfish that they will kill their children in order to escape the burden that a family places on their lifestyle, on the other you have the testimony of many that he appeared to be very attached to his children. It is also very revealing about the limitation of "expert" witnesses which are often little more that hired guns. I for example lost interest in John Douglas for his Jon-Benet Ramsey profile, and Henry Lee for his testimony in the O J Simpson trial where he claimed to discover a second set of footprints at the crime scene which turned out to have been footprints embedded in the concrete which had been there since the home was built.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Thank you Stacy for leaving your comment. I’m so sorry for your incredible loss. God Bless you! Nic

    Thank you Stacy for leaving your comment. I’m so sorry for your incredible loss. God Bless you!
    Nic

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    @Rachel - brilliant thinking! Happy thanksgiving to you! Cheers Nic

    @Rachel - brilliant thinking!
    Happy thanksgiving to you!
    Cheers Nic

  • mG

    mG

    I remember very well when this case happened, lots of news stories, especially during the trial. My memories are how much Todd was beat up for being an awful person. They dogged him for getting the dart board the next day while playing loud music, they dogged him for being a wife-beater, they dogged him for not acting sad. In the minds of most of the public, he was not worthy of compassion or a strong defense. He was a bad person, so screw him. I think he had a narcissistic personality. A lot of people do. These people are just not sympathetic. However, this does not make them guilty. I think the arson "experts" used in this case were small-time. Outside independent investigators have been brought in that dispelled all of the findings of the earlier reports. A bad man was executed for something he didn't do, and we can try to rationalize it by pushing ridiculous "Satanic" angles, which are silly, or admit that people don't really care when lousy humans get executed, even innocent ones. But make no mistake, Texas will fight those allegations of innocence forever, because they know the greater battle at stake here, the future of capital punishment.

    I remember very well when this case happened, lots of news stories, especially during the trial. My memories are how much Todd was beat up for being an awful person. They dogged him for getting the dart board the next day while playing loud music, they dogged him for being a wife-beater, they dogged him for not acting sad. In the minds of most of the public, he was not worthy of compassion or a strong defense. He was a bad person, so screw him. I think he had a narcissistic personality. A lot of people do. These people are just not sympathetic. However, this does not make them guilty. I think the arson "experts" used in this case were small-time. Outside independent investigators have been brought in that dispelled all of the findings of the earlier reports. A bad man was executed for something he didn't do, and we can try to rationalize it by pushing ridiculous "Satanic" angles, which are silly, or admit that people don't really care when lousy humans get executed, even innocent ones. But make no mistake, Texas will fight those allegations of innocence forever, because they know the greater battle at stake here, the future of capital punishment.

  • kim west

    kim west the orphanage

    I was a public defender for the state of Iowa for 35 years, and am quite familiar with the move made by the defense out of the presence of the jury. By putting the defendant in the stand, and effectively waiving his right to testify, on the record, the defense attorney is covering HIS ass in the event of conviction and possible appeal. This way, the defendant cannot claim on appeal ineffective assistance of counsel for not calling him to the stand in his own defense. The reason for making this record out of the presence of the jury should be obvious: to avoid possible adverse prejudice to the defendant. Many such bits of testimony are given during the course of most trials, often to allow the judge to determine the admissibility of some proposed testimony. This helps to avoid the danger of a costly mistrial. Hope this helps; love the podcasts.

    I was a public defender for the state of Iowa for 35 years, and am quite familiar with the move made by the defense out of the presence of the jury. By putting the defendant in the stand, and effectively waiving his right to testify, on the record, the defense attorney is covering HIS ass in the event of conviction and possible appeal. This way, the defendant cannot claim on appeal ineffective assistance of counsel for not calling him to the stand in his own defense. The reason for making this record out of the presence of the jury should be obvious: to avoid possible adverse prejudice to the defendant.
    Many such bits of testimony are given during the course of most trials, often to allow the judge to determine the admissibility of some proposed testimony. This helps to avoid the danger of a costly mistrial.
    Hope this helps; love the podcasts.

  • Katherine

    Katherine Missouri

    I am a bit confused about one issue that no one has mentioned about the one year olds. You stated he said he got up around 9 because the two of them were awake and fussing and he took them out of the bedroom and took them to the living room. He put up the gate so those two would not disturb their older sister then he went back to bed. Did he leave the two of them in the living room? Or was this a case of taking care of them until they went back to bed? If he did leave them in the living room, and he went back to bed, how the hell did their bodies get into the children's bedroom when there was a gate up that they could not get over?

    I am a bit confused about one issue that no one has mentioned about the one year olds. You stated he said he got up around 9 because the two of them were awake and fussing and he took them out of the bedroom and took them to the living room. He put up the gate so those two would not disturb their older sister then he went back to bed. Did he leave the two of them in the living room? Or was this a case of taking care of them until they went back to bed? If he did leave them in the living room, and he went back to bed, how the hell did their bodies get into the children's bedroom when there was a gate up that they could not get over?

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Hi Katherine - Todd got up and took the little ones out of their crib and placed them on the floor in their room. He gave them bottles and put up the baby gait at their doorway. They were in their room the whole time according to Todd's statements to police. Such a sad case! Nic

    Hi Katherine - Todd got up and took the little ones out of their crib and placed them on the floor in their room. He gave them bottles and put up the baby gait at their doorway. They were in their room the whole time according to Todd's statements to police.
    Such a sad case! Nic

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