Heather Dawn Church /// 339 /// 340

24 comments

  • Denise A. Agnew

    Denise A. Agnew Arizona

    I'm excited to hear about your take on the case. I was born in Colorado and from the time I was a baby lived in Black Forest until the 80's when I moved out of my parent's home. My father was a sheriff's deputy with the El Paso County Sheriff's Department but was retired ten years before this case happened. I lived in Colorado Springs when this was all happening but moved away in '93. Keep up the great work, guys. I love your podcasts!

    I'm excited to hear about your take on the case. I was born in Colorado and from the time I was a baby lived in Black Forest until the 80's when I moved out of my parent's home. My father was a sheriff's deputy with the El Paso County Sheriff's Department but was retired ten years before this case happened. I lived in Colorado Springs when this was all happening but moved away in '93.

    Keep up the great work, guys. I love your podcasts!

  • eileen

    eileen australia

    very disappointing episode

    very disappointing episode

  • Reb

    Reb DC

    While I agree that this deplorable PoS needs to never see a free moment in his life, I do think the broader issue of prosecutors using the death penalty this way has led to some serious miscarriages of justice. Look no further than the Daniel Perry case. And, while I don’t fault the prosecutor for making it (appellate law is all about throwing a bunch of things at a wall and seeing what sticks), I don’t like the argument regarding the time the crime occurred. When there is a consequence to the timing of the crime, it’s the prosecutor’s affirmative duty to prove this element of the act. Think of it as simply as this: If something is legal in June and illegal in July, the deeply imbedded constitutional firm ban of ex post facto laws is a foundational principle in US jurisprudence and the prosecution absolutely has to prove that the crime was committed in July not June. I think there are any number of good justifications for a court refusing to vacate his plea (especially if the prosecution acted in good faith - didn’t know about this gap in the law) but this argument about not knowing when the crime occurred so the prosecution doesn’t have to prove a key aspect of the prima facia case, is disturbing from a foundational perspective. Regardless, this dude is where he needs to be- it’s just that sometimes the ways to get him there have ripple effects much more broadly than people realize. Finally, you guys have been getting along so much better these days. Glad to see your TalkSpace couples therapy is paying off!

    While I agree that this deplorable PoS needs to never see a free moment in his life, I do think the broader issue of prosecutors using the death penalty this way has led to some serious miscarriages of justice. Look no further than the Daniel Perry case.

    And, while I don’t fault the prosecutor for making it (appellate law is all about throwing a bunch of things at a wall and seeing what sticks), I don’t like the argument regarding the time the crime occurred. When there is a consequence to the timing of the crime, it’s the prosecutor’s affirmative duty to prove this element of the act. Think of it as simply as this: If something is legal in June and illegal in July, the deeply imbedded constitutional firm ban of ex post facto laws is a foundational principle in US jurisprudence and the prosecution absolutely has to prove that the crime was committed in July not June. I think there are any number of good justifications for a court refusing to vacate his plea (especially if the prosecution acted in good faith - didn’t know about this gap in the law) but this argument about not knowing when the crime occurred so the prosecution doesn’t have to prove a key aspect of the prima facia case, is disturbing from a foundational perspective.

    Regardless, this dude is where he needs to be- it’s just that sometimes the ways to get him there have ripple effects much more broadly than people realize.

    Finally, you guys have been getting along so much better these days. Glad to see your TalkSpace couples therapy is paying off!

  • Madi

    Madi Pittsburgh

    I noticed a couple of things about this monster. The letter he wrote sort of “confessing” to his 40+ other kills reminded me of the zodiac. If I’m remembering correctly, the zodiac would use almost a scoring system when he released his letters? Was this maybe a way for him to try to get more attention? Also, regarding the psychic reading where the physic predicted Browne’s name and car? Did the mom talk about this prediction before or after they found out who the killer was?...that part to me is fascinating if it actually happened!

    I noticed a couple of things about this monster. The letter he wrote sort of “confessing” to his 40+ other kills reminded me of the zodiac. If I’m remembering correctly, the zodiac would use almost a scoring system when he released his letters? Was this maybe a way for him to try to get more attention?

    Also, regarding the psychic reading where the physic predicted Browne’s name and car? Did the mom talk about this prediction before or after they found out who the killer was?...that part to me is fascinating if it actually happened!

  • Uncle D.

    Uncle D. BFE

    It's very Zodiac style the way this guy lists a score between him and the police. I know he lived in California at some point, but Is it known if he lived in California at the time of 1970? I know he would be young. But it's not implausible if he was there.

    It's very Zodiac style the way this guy lists a score between him and the police. I know he lived in California at some point, but Is it known if he lived in California at the time of 1970? I know he would be young. But it's not implausible if he was there.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    The Zodiac stuff is interesting - this guy was certainly an owner of multiple guns. Browne's movements while known to law enforcement - I don't have a great understanding of them. Ive never seen a timeline/road map of his movements. I do know regarding his confession map - with the outline of several states with a number that is thought to indicate how many he killed in each state for California he put the number 2 which its believed at minimum zodiac killed 5 in California. judging by what I have seen I think Browne would have been in California for a short period of time and most likely in the early 80's. Zodiac killed for the most part in 68 and 69. Browne was born on Halloween 1952 (spooky) so he would have been less than 16 years old at the time of the first zodiac attack and Browne was living in Louisiana. Cheers - sorry Eileen that you did not like the episodes. Personally I found the Church case fascinating. I may have dropped the ball a bit on the Browne stuff but we wanted to feature Heather's case and not focus on Browne's supposed confessions/ games. He's a liar and I believe he is a serial killer - I believe he has killed most likely from everything I have reviewed 3-8 people. Nowhere near the 48-51 that he claims. He chose numbers that high because that would have put him at the top for the US. As said on the show he wants to be someone special - he is not. If you review his crimes he is something that he never admitted to being. He is a rapists, he abducted, attacked, broke into homes all so he could rape a child or young woman and he killed them to get away with it and because he hates women and thinks that they have no value. Heather Church and the other victim were someone special and they would have continued to be special. Nic

    The Zodiac stuff is interesting - this guy was certainly an owner of multiple guns. Browne's movements while known to law enforcement - I don't have a great understanding of them. Ive never seen a timeline/road map of his movements. I do know regarding his confession map - with the outline of several states with a number that is thought to indicate how many he killed in each state for California he put the number 2 which its believed at minimum zodiac killed 5 in California. judging by what I have seen I think Browne would have been in California for a short period of time and most likely in the early 80's. Zodiac killed for the most part in 68 and 69. Browne was born on Halloween 1952 (spooky) so he would have been less than 16 years old at the time of the first zodiac attack and Browne was living in Louisiana.
    Cheers - sorry Eileen that you did not like the episodes. Personally I found the Church case fascinating. I may have dropped the ball a bit on the Browne stuff but we wanted to feature Heather's case and not focus on Browne's supposed confessions/ games.
    He's a liar and I believe he is a serial killer - I believe he has killed most likely from everything I have reviewed 3-8 people. Nowhere near the 48-51 that he claims. He chose numbers that high because that would have put him at the top for the US. As said on the show he wants to be someone special - he is not. If you review his crimes he is something that he never admitted to being. He is a rapists, he abducted, attacked, broke into homes all so he could rape a child or young woman and he killed them to get away with it and because he hates women and thinks that they have no value.
    Heather Church and the other victim were someone special and they would have continued to be special.
    Nic

  • RACHEL

    RACHEL OH

    Eileen is a Debbie Downer...under . Ok. I'll stop now.

    Eileen is a Debbie Downer...under . Ok. I'll stop now.

  • Ronni

    Ronni Texas

    Can we talk about the fact that you guys mentioned several psychics, but you said that one of them indicated someone named 'Brown' killed/abducted Heather and that his name was spelled oddly, and then the guy who did it's name was 'Browne'???? Like I'm sure its possible that she just looked at their closest neighbors and guessed it was him, but that's pretty bizarre either way that she ended up being right.

    Can we talk about the fact that you guys mentioned several psychics, but you said that one of them indicated someone named 'Brown' killed/abducted Heather and that his name was spelled oddly, and then the guy who did it's name was 'Browne'???? Like I'm sure its possible that she just looked at their closest neighbors and guessed it was him, but that's pretty bizarre either way that she ended up being right.

  • Cathy

    Cathy Ny

    Just something strange about this case was his last name is brown, like the psychic said

    Just something strange about this case was his last name is brown, like the psychic said

  • John

    John Uk

    So the psychic was correct about the unusual spelling??

    So the psychic was correct about the unusual spelling??

  • Pierre

    Pierre France

    I was eating a baguette with some cheese from the south of France and listen to the podcast. I wish I could do a naked cuddle with you both , if I get green card will u cuddle?

    I was eating a baguette with some cheese from the south of France and listen to the podcast. I wish I could do a naked cuddle with you both , if I get green card will u cuddle?

  • Michelle

    Michelle Kansas City, MO

    I thought this was a great episode! Nic, what do you have against September 20th???

    I thought this was a great episode!
    Nic, what do you have against September 20th???

  • Amanda

    Amanda Maryland

    Aww, the poor dicknose doesn't like being in prison? Well, I'm pretty sure Heather's family didn't like losing a 13-year-old to murder, and that his other victims' families didn't like losing their loved ones. Reb- I see your point, and things like the Stephen Avery case remind us that, guilty or not, every case needs to be treated with fairness. I just had to roll my eyes when the guy complained about the prison he was in, as if he's entitled to be comfortable after killing a young girl (and probably others). To be honest, I find it a bit confusing when it comes to applying punishments available at the time the crime was committed, versus when the person is arrested. I mean, would the killer make the argument that they wouldn't have killed the person if the death penalty was active? You're being charged with murder NOW, and the death penalty is active NOW. I'm sure there's a reason for it... just makes cases like this one really complicated. On a lighter note, I chuckle whenever you guys go "Got 'eem!" Rachel- Don't you love it when people post that it was a bad episode, but don't explain why? Come on, Eileen! :-P

    Aww, the poor dicknose doesn't like being in prison? Well, I'm pretty sure Heather's family didn't like losing a 13-year-old to murder, and that his other victims' families didn't like losing their loved ones. Reb- I see your point, and things like the Stephen Avery case remind us that, guilty or not, every case needs to be treated with fairness. I just had to roll my eyes when the guy complained about the prison he was in, as if he's entitled to be comfortable after killing a young girl (and probably others).

    To be honest, I find it a bit confusing when it comes to applying punishments available at the time the crime was committed, versus when the person is arrested. I mean, would the killer make the argument that they wouldn't have killed the person if the death penalty was active? You're being charged with murder NOW, and the death penalty is active NOW. I'm sure there's a reason for it... just makes cases like this one really complicated.

    On a lighter note, I chuckle whenever you guys go "Got 'eem!"

    Rachel- Don't you love it when people post that it was a bad episode, but don't explain why? Come on, Eileen! :-P

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Yes the psychic was correct. I don't have a date for when she made her prediction but it was if I recall correctly before the remains were found. The psychic lived in New Jersey so would have had limited access to finding information on the neighbors. She got the killer right by name - Brown but spelled odd. She said the property had lots of trees - Browne was a tree farmer. She said the building had a triangular roof - Browne had a shed with a triangular roof. Some believe her body may have been kept there over night. And she correctly described his vehicle a tan pick up truck. So she was spot on. The weird thing and I don't believe in psychics and we didn't discuss this prediction too much because we come under heavy fire when we discuss psychics. Back when we covered "The Small Town Murders" last October there was a different psychic in that case that was vague but right. She said Dale Johnston is innocent (when everyone thought he was the killer) and that the murders were committed by two killers - which they were. Happy Halloween! - not yet but you know! Nic

    Yes the psychic was correct. I don't have a date for when she made her prediction but it was if I recall correctly before the remains were found. The psychic lived in New Jersey so would have had limited access to finding information on the neighbors. She got the killer right by name - Brown but spelled odd. She said the property had lots of trees - Browne was a tree farmer. She said the building had a triangular roof - Browne had a shed with a triangular roof. Some believe her body may have been kept there over night. And she correctly described his vehicle a tan pick up truck. So she was spot on. The weird thing and I don't believe in psychics and we didn't discuss this prediction too much because we come under heavy fire when we discuss psychics. Back when we covered "The Small Town Murders" last October there was a different psychic in that case that was vague but right. She said Dale Johnston is innocent (when everyone thought he was the killer) and that the murders were committed by two killers - which they were.
    Happy Halloween! - not yet but you know!
    Nic

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Nothing against September 20th. September is my favorite month. My words were getting all jumbled up and I spouted of the wrong year after saying September 20th. I got mad at myself and forgot to edit that part out later. Cheers and sorry for being a douche canoe! Nic

    Nothing against September 20th. September is my favorite month. My words were getting all jumbled up and I spouted of the wrong year after saying September 20th.
    I got mad at myself and forgot to edit that part out later.
    Cheers and sorry for being a douche canoe!
    Nic

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    We don't do double cuddles - only single cuddles. Nic

    We don't do double cuddles - only single cuddles.
    Nic

  • mG

    mG

    Nic, you are the king and I have mad respect for you. However, in the future, do not do that slow pause in between sentences for the opening anymore. It was very unorthodox and hard to follow. Maybe if there had been some background music laid in there it would have had some flow. But it sounded so fragmented. GO BUCKS!

    Nic, you are the king and I have mad respect for you. However, in the future, do not do that slow pause in between sentences for the opening anymore. It was very unorthodox and hard to follow. Maybe if there had been some background music laid in there it would have had some flow. But it sounded so fragmented. GO BUCKS!

  • Aspen

    Aspen NH

    The nitpicking you guys endure is unreal. "Don't pause between your words" perhaps is a new low but you've certainly tolerated some ridiculous criticism. And I must say you handle it very gracefully and professionally!

    The nitpicking you guys endure is unreal. "Don't pause between your words" perhaps is a new low but you've certainly tolerated some ridiculous criticism. And I must say you handle it very gracefully and professionally!

  • Ro

    Ro everywhere

    Fun fact. This is the exact same name (and spelling) as one of my uncles. I'm going to tease him about it

    Fun fact. This is the exact same name (and spelling) as one of my uncles. I'm going to tease him about it

  • Jack Daft

    Jack Daft Elsewhere

    Thanks for following up on the psychic. I really thought I was losing my mind when all the pieces started falling into place and yet you never mentioned it again! I respect the fact that you prefer not to comment on it during the cast, but damn if that wasn’t spot on. Cheers boys!

    Thanks for following up on the psychic. I really thought I was losing my mind when all the pieces started falling into place and yet you never mentioned it again!

    I respect the fact that you prefer not to comment on it during the cast, but damn if that wasn’t spot on.

    Cheers boys!

  • John

    John UK

    Nic--thanks so much for following up on the psychic question I had. You guys are the best: and I listen to all of the big TC podcasts! The way that you introduce the material to us in the proper chronology sets you guys apart and makes for a thrilling listening experience. As far as trusting psychics goes, I am with you. Although, when you think of it, what's stranger? That psychics sometimes do channel space/time? Or that we can make beautiful music while we live on a spinning rock hurtling through an infinite universe?

    Nic--thanks so much for following up on the psychic question I had. You guys are the best: and I listen to all of the big TC podcasts! The way that you introduce the material to us in the proper chronology sets you guys apart and makes for a thrilling listening experience.

    As far as trusting psychics goes, I am with you. Although, when you think of it, what's stranger? That psychics sometimes do channel space/time? Or that we can make beautiful music while we live on a spinning rock hurtling through an infinite universe?

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Word John! I think I'll have to break out the peace pipe, turn up some tunes and spend the night contemplating these deep, deep questions! Cheers to you! Nic

    Word John! I think I'll have to break out the peace pipe, turn up some tunes and spend the night contemplating these deep, deep questions!
    Cheers to you!
    Nic

  • Amy

    Amy KC MO

    so glad you guys decided to focus on the victim instead of the killer. it seemed like he loved the notoriety. people mentioned Zodiac which is very true. i also thought of BTK when he was bragging about the murders and communicating with police. what a douche! as always great job guys

    so glad you guys decided to focus on the victim instead of the killer. it seemed like he loved the notoriety. people mentioned Zodiac which is very true. i also thought of BTK when he was bragging about the murders and communicating with police. what a douche!

    as always great job guys

  • Lindsay

    Lindsay Ontario

    I love with when you feature Canadian beer! I put on this episode as I was leaving Flying Monkeys last night and it was so cool to hear a local beer get some love.

    I love with when you feature Canadian beer! I put on this episode as I was leaving Flying Monkeys last night and it was so cool to hear a local beer get some love.

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