JonBenet Ramsey ////// Little Miss Christmas

21 comments

  • Tracey

    Tracey UK

    Oh no I thought you weren't going to touch this one. It's been done to death

    Oh no I thought you weren't going to touch this one. It's been done to death

  • Emily

    Emily Tennessee

    Haven't listened yet, but looking forward to hearing your theories on the case! This case and the Delphi murders are two cases that i would love to see solved. So much evidence but still no answers. These little girls deserve justice!!

    Haven't listened yet, but looking forward to hearing your theories on the case! This case and the Delphi murders are two cases that i would love to see solved. So much evidence but still no answers. These little girls deserve justice!!

  • Amy

    Amy KCMO

    "they should get in their douche canoe and paddle down vanity river" LOL i know thats right Captain!!!

    "they should get in their douche canoe and paddle down vanity river" LOL i know thats right Captain!!!

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Correction! I believe I said breast cancer... Patsy was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. Apologies - Nic

    Correction! I believe I said breast cancer... Patsy was diagnosed with ovarian cancer.
    Apologies - Nic

  • René

    René The Shoe

    I have a question and I'm not sure that it's been mentioned before, but did Burke elude ask between the 911 call and finding Jon Benet that there was a chance she could've been alive? Maybe staying "optimistic" or doubting that the worst case could've happened? I am curious about his reaction in that amount of time.

    I have a question and I'm not sure that it's been mentioned before, but did Burke elude ask between the 911 call and finding Jon Benet that there was a chance she could've been alive? Maybe staying "optimistic" or doubting that the worst case could've happened? I am curious about his reaction in that amount of time.

  • Danielle

    Danielle Illinois

    I've been patiently (sorta lol) waiting on these episodes to start, ever since you discussed on Off The Record. Thank you. The first episode was great setting up the background. I remember seeing the tabloids at the supermarket when I was a kid...wandering about this pretty, blonde girl all dressed up. I am the same age that Jon Benet would have been today if this terrible crime never happened. Just awful and sad. Who would she be today if she had the chance?

    I've been patiently (sorta lol) waiting on these episodes to start, ever since you discussed on Off The Record. Thank you. The first episode was great setting up the background. I remember seeing the tabloids at the supermarket when I was a kid...wandering about this pretty, blonde girl all dressed up. I am the same age that Jon Benet would have been today if this terrible crime never happened. Just awful and sad. Who would she be today if she had the chance?

  • Jenni

    Jenni KY

    How are there only 4 comments???

    How are there only 4 comments???

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Rene - sorry I'll try to answer your question. The Ramsey's have always maintained that Burke slept through the night and then they woke him up at 7am and sent him to a friend's house at 7:13am. If that is true he would have not have seen, heard or knew of anything going on. It's not easy to believe that and we will get to that in more detail soon. Cheers Nic

    Rene - sorry I'll try to answer your question. The Ramsey's have always maintained that Burke slept through the night and then they woke him up at 7am and sent him to a friend's house at 7:13am. If that is true he would have not have seen, heard or knew of anything going on. It's not easy to believe that and we will get to that in more detail soon.
    Cheers Nic

  • Barbara Resnick

    Barbara Resnick Seattle

    Check out the blog Solving Jonbenet from Doc G. It has a very definitive solutiong that cuts through a lot of the bs.

    Check out the blog Solving Jonbenet from Doc G. It has a very definitive solutiong that cuts through a lot of the bs.

  • Johnson

    Johnson Australia

    Barbara Resnick, so what’s this very definitive solution? Anyway, I’ve never found the parents particularly suspicious. Those who think they are, a) seem dead sure of it, too much so, instead of being merely suspicious or following the evidence, which would increase their credibility, they state it’s the parents based on flimsy evidence. and, b) demonstrate total tunnel vision on the matter. Then the handwriting: it is *not* a perfect match for Patsy, something like 1/9 experts said “perfect match!” (And she’s the one who goes on all the tv shows and news sites), 3/9 said it wasn’t a match and 5/9 said was similar but not definitive. Most of the suspicion comes from the “it’s *usually* the parents in these types of cases, therefore it *must* be the parents in this case” utterly illogical argument. As well as the useless original ‘detective’ who likes to think she has some super-intuition, seeing things only she can see that no one else can because she’s so darn smart, and therefore she can tell from the dad’s “cordiality” that therefore, well, he must be guilty. The one other thing people say is “why would the murderer waste time writing a long note?” Fair point but why the hell would Patsy waste time writing a long note in her own handwriting instead of 2 lines?? That makes even *less* sense. Chances are it was a loopy pedophile nutter who likes to ramble and felt that writing a long note would throw people off. These people don’t always have loads of grey matter in their skulls. As for the idea the son is on the 911 call, I agree he may well be and this story by the parents doesn’t make sense. But whatever weird reason they made that bit up (if they did) means they are a bit quirky and off beat, not murderers. We’ve all seen enough cases to know that this could be anything.

    Barbara Resnick, so what’s this very definitive solution?

    Anyway, I’ve never found the parents particularly suspicious. Those who think they are, a) seem dead sure of it, too much so, instead of being merely suspicious or following the evidence, which would increase their credibility, they state it’s the parents based on flimsy evidence. and, b) demonstrate total tunnel vision on the matter.

    Then the handwriting: it is *not* a perfect match for Patsy, something like 1/9 experts said “perfect match!” (And she’s the one who goes on all the tv shows and news sites), 3/9 said it wasn’t a match and 5/9 said was similar but not definitive.

    Most of the suspicion comes from the “it’s *usually* the parents in these types of cases, therefore it *must* be the parents in this case” utterly illogical argument. As well as the useless original ‘detective’ who likes to think she has some super-intuition, seeing things only she can see that no one else can because she’s so darn smart, and therefore she can tell from the dad’s “cordiality” that therefore, well, he must be guilty.

    The one other thing people say is “why would the murderer waste time writing a long note?” Fair point but why the hell would Patsy waste time writing a long note in her own handwriting instead of 2 lines?? That makes even *less* sense.

    Chances are it was a loopy pedophile nutter who likes to ramble and felt that writing a long note would throw people off. These people don’t always have loads of grey matter in their skulls.

    As for the idea the son is on the 911 call, I agree he may well be and this story by the parents doesn’t make sense. But whatever weird reason they made that bit up (if they did) means they are a bit quirky and off beat, not murderers. We’ve all seen enough cases to know that this could be anything.

  • Todd

    Todd Aus

    I need the intro as my ringtone!!

    I need the intro as my ringtone!!

  • Rachel

    Rachel Ohio

    I will never be able to get over Patsy’s reaction to what happened. If I think my child is gone, no one has to tell me to call 911. I’m doing that first. Maybe second, after I run to the rooms of my other children and wake them up frantically to keep them right by me until I figure out what’s going on and if there is still any danger. Also, I’m not gonna analyze her voice on the call because I didn’t know her personally. However, I will say that the distress in her voice sounds real. But that doesn’t mean the distress is because she doesn’t know what happened. You can know what happened, know what you have to do to stick with a plan, and still have a surge of emotions carrying out the plan, especially when it becomes “real” by involving outside parties. It’s like “okay we’re going live in 3,2,1” and then the stress hits. Obviously I think Burke did it lol Anxious to hear the rest of the series! Great job yet again guys!

    I will never be able to get over Patsy’s reaction to what happened. If I think my child is gone, no one has to tell me to call 911. I’m doing that first. Maybe second, after I run to the rooms of my other children and wake them up frantically to keep them right by me until I figure out what’s going on and if there is still any danger. Also, I’m not gonna analyze her voice on the call because I didn’t know her personally. However, I will say that the distress in her voice sounds real. But that doesn’t mean the distress is because she doesn’t know what happened. You can know what happened, know what you have to do to stick with a plan, and still have a surge of emotions carrying out the plan, especially when it becomes “real” by involving outside parties. It’s like “okay we’re going live in 3,2,1” and then the stress hits. Obviously I think Burke did it lol Anxious to hear the rest of the series! Great job yet again guys!

  • Barbara Resnick

    Barbara Resnick Seattle

    The blogspot blog Solving Jonbenet points to John Ramsey as the killer. There are several reasons why but the most damning is the "ransom" note. The obvious intention is to dissuade anyone from calling the police, hence the "beheading" threat. That was to give John time to dispose of the body under the guise of meeting the kidnappers and delivering the ransom. Patsy ignored that and DID call the police right away, spoiling John's plan. In at least one interview Patsy says it was her idea to call the police however when the two were interviewed together John said he told her to and she went with that probably thinking nothing of it. There is zero evidence that an intruder was there that night. Everything used was found in the home. Surely a real kidnapper would bring their own note already written. The writer of the blogspot blog gives other reasons that John is the killer as well.

    The blogspot blog Solving Jonbenet points to John Ramsey as the killer. There are several reasons why but the most damning is the "ransom" note. The obvious intention is to dissuade anyone from calling the police, hence the "beheading" threat. That was to give John time to dispose of the body under the guise of meeting the kidnappers and delivering the ransom. Patsy ignored that and DID call the police right away, spoiling John's plan. In at least one interview Patsy says it was her idea to call the police however when the two were interviewed together John said he told her to and she went with that probably thinking nothing of it. There is zero evidence that an intruder was there that night. Everything used was found in the home. Surely a real kidnapper would bring their own note already written. The writer of the blogspot blog gives other reasons that John is the killer as well.

  • Leigh

    Leigh Georgia

    This has been my pet case for a long time. You are doing a great job with this so far--a different approach than others. Personally, I think classism plays a big role in why people suspect the parents "If I had that much money I would..." or "Because they are wealthy they must..." A dangerous game to play. I run in wealthy Southern Christian circles and am amused by the social aspects of this case that shock people. Having friends come over immediately to pray and wait with you isn't remotely suspicious. These people were not in law enforcement and this was before true crime podcasts and forensic shows were all the rage. Many mistakes were made in this investigation and I don't think it will ever be solved.

    This has been my pet case for a long time. You are doing a great job with this so far--a different approach than others.

    Personally, I think classism plays a big role in why people suspect the parents "If I had that much money I would..." or "Because they are wealthy they must..." A dangerous game to play.

    I run in wealthy Southern Christian circles and am amused by the social aspects of this case that shock people. Having friends come over immediately to pray and wait with you isn't remotely suspicious. These people were not in law enforcement and this was before true crime podcasts and forensic shows were all the rage.

    Many mistakes were made in this investigation and I don't think it will ever be solved.

  • Hazel

    Hazel FL

    Tracey - It has been done to death but most podcast efforts on this case have ranged from awful to so-so and full of inaccuracies. Based on the first two episodes, it appears the TCG guys have at least done some proper research and are making a respectable effort in doing the discussion on this case justice.

    Tracey - It has been done to death but most podcast efforts on this case have ranged from awful to so-so and full of inaccuracies. Based on the first two episodes, it appears the TCG guys have at least done some proper research and are making a respectable effort in doing the discussion on this case justice.

  • Reb

    Reb DC

    Gosh darn it, guys. When I saw you were doing Jon Benet I rolled my eyes and got annoyed, only to get more annoyed two hours later when it ended and realized I had to wait a week for more. There is something mesmerizing about this whole situation that you just can’t put into words. I think there is an element of this case that is like a Rorschach test – about each individual’s Mommy, Daddy, and Sibling Issues, the appropriateness of certain behavior in young girls, and money and class. For example, one of the reasons that people gave Patsy such a hard time is that instead of being perceived as cultured or sophisticated, she was perceived as low-rent and new money. The pageant stuff was seen as vulgar, and her as being very down market for letting her daughter do this. Or, I remember when these events were unfolding in the first place, a friend correcting someone “he went to Michigan STATE, not Michigan.” All of these impressions or these people and one’s conclusion regarding their guilt are filtered through our own perceptions and biases. I will concede that I firmly believe that some Venn Diagram of Patsy, John, and Burke are responsible for her death. Nothing else makes sense but an internal conflict. I strongly suspect it was Burke, and honestly can’t really fault the impulse of parents to try to protect him once they realized there was nothing they could do for their daughter. A few issues: - I had never really centered in on how much the parents sheltered Burke from the get go until listening to your show. They make such a point of him being asleep, even to the point of absurdity. I absolutely can not for a second believe that a parent’s first impulse when their daughter goes missing is to not go check in on the other child. It defies logic, not just to see if he knows anything, or it’s a prank and she’s in his room, but to make sure he is safe, too. This insistence that he was asleep until well into the cops showing up make ZERO sense – wouldn’t you want to latch on to your child as tight as you could when there was a threat to the safety of the family. It makes no sense whatsoever. - Also, you pointed something out (maybe accidently) that also gives me pause about their insistence on Burke being a complete non-entity in this. They claim he fell asleep in the car on the ride home. I call all sorts of BS on this. I can possibly see the five year old, but not the nine year old. Especially, as you point out, that the time/distance between the party house and theirs was a matter of a couple of minutes, which we know because of how lightening fast Fleet shows up to the Ramsey house once called. They are doing everything to keep Burke out of the narrative. - I really appreciate you challenging one of the things I hate the most about how people judge others – which is that they don’t think they behaved appropriately in reaction to massive trauma and terror. There is no way to know how someone would behave in any circumstance, and two people are going to react differently. Saying someone was not upset enough is ridiculous because NO ONE knows for sure how they would react – horror, shock, numbness etc. And, in face of the inconceivable, there’s pretty much no “wrong” way to react. - I do think you were quite delicate regarding Patsy, which is kind of you. Regardless of what happened, she isn’t a Terri Horman or what have you. I highly doubt she got out of bed that morning thinking she was going to harm JonBenet. I suspect Terri most certainly got out of bed that day with the intention to hurt Kyron. However, there is something off with her. The messy house, for example, reminds me of the families I knew growing up where the mother’s had a screw lose. At the end, I suspect we will never know what really happened to this poor little girl, who in death has been treated as the same caricature that she was treated like in life. As always, you guys are awesome!

    Gosh darn it, guys. When I saw you were doing Jon Benet I rolled my eyes and got annoyed, only to get more annoyed two hours later when it ended and realized I had to wait a week for more. There is something mesmerizing about this whole situation that you just can’t put into words. I think there is an element of this case that is like a Rorschach test – about each individual’s Mommy, Daddy, and Sibling Issues, the appropriateness of certain behavior in young girls, and money and class. For example, one of the reasons that people gave Patsy such a hard time is that instead of being perceived as cultured or sophisticated, she was perceived as low-rent and new money. The pageant stuff was seen as vulgar, and her as being very down market for letting her daughter do this. Or, I remember when these events were unfolding in the first place, a friend correcting someone “he went to Michigan STATE, not Michigan.” All of these impressions or these people and one’s conclusion regarding their guilt are filtered through our own perceptions and biases.

    I will concede that I firmly believe that some Venn Diagram of Patsy, John, and Burke are responsible for her death. Nothing else makes sense but an internal conflict. I strongly suspect it was Burke, and honestly can’t really fault the impulse of parents to try to protect him once they realized there was nothing they could do for their daughter. A few issues:

    - I had never really centered in on how much the parents sheltered Burke from the get go until listening to your show. They make such a point of him being asleep, even to the point of absurdity. I absolutely can not for a second believe that a parent’s first impulse when their daughter goes missing is to not go check in on the other child. It defies logic, not just to see if he knows anything, or it’s a prank and she’s in his room, but to make sure he is safe, too. This insistence that he was asleep until well into the cops showing up make ZERO sense – wouldn’t you want to latch on to your child as tight as you could when there was a threat to the safety of the family. It makes no sense whatsoever.
    - Also, you pointed something out (maybe accidently) that also gives me pause about their insistence on Burke being a complete non-entity in this. They claim he fell asleep in the car on the ride home. I call all sorts of BS on this. I can possibly see the five year old, but not the nine year old. Especially, as you point out, that the time/distance between the party house and theirs was a matter of a couple of minutes, which we know because of how lightening fast Fleet shows up to the Ramsey house once called. They are doing everything to keep Burke out of the narrative.
    - I really appreciate you challenging one of the things I hate the most about how people judge others – which is that they don’t think they behaved appropriately in reaction to massive trauma and terror. There is no way to know how someone would behave in any circumstance, and two people are going to react differently. Saying someone was not upset enough is ridiculous because NO ONE knows for sure how they would react – horror, shock, numbness etc. And, in face of the inconceivable, there’s pretty much no “wrong” way to react.
    - I do think you were quite delicate regarding Patsy, which is kind of you. Regardless of what happened, she isn’t a Terri Horman or what have you. I highly doubt she got out of bed that morning thinking she was going to harm JonBenet. I suspect Terri most certainly got out of bed that day with the intention to hurt Kyron. However, there is something off with her. The messy house, for example, reminds me of the families I knew growing up where the mother’s had a screw lose.
    At the end, I suspect we will never know what really happened to this poor little girl, who in death has been treated as the same caricature that she was treated like in life.
    As always, you guys are awesome!

  • Carrie

    Carrie VA

    I was listening to this episode on my way to work this morning and felt the need to add my $0.02.... On Christmas Eve, JonBenet went to play with her friend and told the friend's mom that she (JonBenet) was going to get a secret visit from Santa. Both Nick and the Captain pointed out that the friend's mom could take it to mean different things, and that JonBenet had been very active during the Christmas season with parties, parades, etc. I didn't take JonBenet's statement to mean that she was being abused or something nefarious. What I took it to mean was that the Ramsey's hadn't told their kids that they were going on the Disney Cruise after Christmas (re. Patsy saying she would be spending her actual birthday on the Big Red Boat). What if the Ramseys were going to surprise their kids with the cruise and said that Santa would be seeing them again after Christmas and that was what JonBenet was referring to? I think JonBenet's death is what puts her comment into the category of "foreshadowing" when in reality it could've been what I described above. I apologize if my comment is redundant. Love the show!

    I was listening to this episode on my way to work this morning and felt the need to add my $0.02....

    On Christmas Eve, JonBenet went to play with her friend and told the friend's mom that she (JonBenet) was going to get a secret visit from Santa. Both Nick and the Captain pointed out that the friend's mom could take it to mean different things, and that JonBenet had been very active during the Christmas season with parties, parades, etc. I didn't take JonBenet's statement to mean that she was being abused or something nefarious. What I took it to mean was that the Ramsey's hadn't told their kids that they were going on the Disney Cruise after Christmas (re. Patsy saying she would be spending her actual birthday on the Big Red Boat). What if the Ramseys were going to surprise their kids with the cruise and said that Santa would be seeing them again after Christmas and that was what JonBenet was referring to?
    I think JonBenet's death is what puts her comment into the category of "foreshadowing" when in reality it could've been what I described above.
    I apologize if my comment is redundant. Love the show!

  • Egbert Williams

    Egbert Williams Ireland

    "Crazy eyes, crazy eyes, crazy eyes crazy eyes..." We get it. It's even more hilarious the tenth time. You are a wit to rival Twain and Swift. Also, "Derp - They forgot if Burke was awake or how many kids they had or what planet they were on because they were upset. The FBI says people who are upset don't get anything right. OJ was so upset that his precious ex-wife was dead that he forgot someone came by and splashed him with her blood. It's science. People get upset and forget." One guy on this podcast is great and the other one is tolerated because of the guy who's great.

    "Crazy eyes, crazy eyes, crazy eyes crazy eyes..." We get it. It's even more hilarious the tenth time. You are a wit to rival Twain and Swift.

    Also, "Derp - They forgot if Burke was awake or how many kids they had or what planet they were on because they were upset. The FBI says people who are upset don't get anything right. OJ was so upset that his precious ex-wife was dead that he forgot someone came by and splashed him with her blood. It's science. People get upset and forget."

    One guy on this podcast is great and the other one is tolerated because of the guy who's great.

  • Nicholas

    Nicholas Parts Unknown

    You guys do unsolved cases better than anyone else! I went back to look at Burke's interview with police, when he absolutely freezes when he is shown the picture of the bowl on pineapple, and can't bring himself to even appropriately identify the snack he may have shared with JonBenet. It was odd and disturbing, as though the picture brought back his recollection of the horrific events that followed the snack. Although I'm getting a bit ahead of you guys, I had also forgotten how odd his Dr. Phil interview was. He hides out for 20 years, then gives a paid interview with Dr. Phil, during which he shows no sadness, anger, disgust, traumatic anxiety, nor really any emotion other than the odd smiling and near laughter when discussing the horrific crime perpetrated on his sister. Being strange doesn't necessarily make a person a killer, but his presentation and lack of negative emotion in those interviews vaulted him to the top of my list of suspects, with Mom as an accessory, trying to cover for the perpetrator with the obviously fake ransom note.

    You guys do unsolved cases better than anyone else! I went back to look at Burke's interview with police, when he absolutely freezes when he is shown the picture of the bowl on pineapple, and can't bring himself to even appropriately identify the snack he may have shared with JonBenet. It was odd and disturbing, as though the picture brought back his recollection of the horrific events that followed the snack. Although I'm getting a bit ahead of you guys, I had also forgotten how odd his Dr. Phil interview was. He hides out for 20 years, then gives a paid interview with Dr. Phil, during which he shows no sadness, anger, disgust, traumatic anxiety, nor really any emotion other than the odd smiling and near laughter when discussing the horrific crime perpetrated on his sister. Being strange doesn't necessarily make a person a killer, but his presentation and lack of negative emotion in those interviews vaulted him to the top of my list of suspects, with Mom as an accessory, trying to cover for the perpetrator with the obviously fake ransom note.

  • Amanda

    Amanda Grand Rapids, MI

    Thanks for doing these episodes - I always assumed she was killed by someone in her family but after listening to the episodes I think it was an intruder. I watched the 1997 CNN interview John and Patsy gave and what struck me was how after only one WEEK they had it together enough to publically speak on TV. They were composed, calm and groomed. I know everyone deals with grief differently but if my was child killed, let alone viciously killed in my own home and I found her body, I wouldn't be functioning. I mean, the trauma of finding your murdered daughter and knowing the horror she experienced...that has to be enough to knock even the strongest person down. I dont care if you have military training OR beauty pageant training. I know everyone deals with death and grief differently but their ability to compose themselves after such a horrific crime is shocking.

    Thanks for doing these episodes - I always assumed she was killed by someone in her family but after listening to the episodes I think it was an intruder.

    I watched the 1997 CNN interview John and Patsy gave and what struck me was how after only one WEEK they had it together enough to publically speak on TV. They were composed, calm and groomed. I know everyone deals with grief differently but if my was child killed, let alone viciously killed in my own home and I found her body, I wouldn't be functioning. I mean, the trauma of finding your murdered daughter and knowing the horror she experienced...that has to be enough to knock even the strongest person down. I dont care if you have military training OR beauty pageant training.

    I know everyone deals with death and grief differently but their ability to compose themselves after such a horrific crime is shocking.

  • Sissy

    Sissy LaLa

    Amanda — google the CNN interview and watch Patsy closely. It is 100% apparent that she is zonked out of her mind on benzos. Her eyelids droop half-way closes at times and her cadence is almost slurred. It isn’t hard to imagine a) her doctor/John medicated her for overwhelming shock and b) keeping her drugged made her pliable and c) if John told her they needed to get justice for JB by doing an interview, then of course, she did it for her daughter. She is the polar opposite of composed.

    Amanda — google the CNN interview and watch Patsy closely. It is 100% apparent that she is zonked out of her mind on benzos. Her eyelids droop half-way closes at times and her cadence is almost slurred. It isn’t hard to imagine a) her doctor/John medicated her for overwhelming shock and b) keeping her drugged made her pliable and c) if John told her they needed to get justice for JB by doing an interview, then of course, she did it for her daughter. She is the polar opposite of composed.

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