Kyron Horman /////// 4 Part Series

73 comments

  • Charity

    Charity Oregon

    I was excited ( that may not be the right word) to see you guys are doing this. I lived right by where he lived when this happened. I look forward to listening and seeing your opinion on this case. I just want to say that I really appreciate the way you guys handle these cases. You are entertaining without ever seeming to exploit the people involved. My favorite parts are when the captain says something "funny" and Nic just ignores him. It makes me laugh every time. I love you both and you work so well together. Thanks and Cheers馃槉

    I was excited ( that may not be the right word) to see you guys are doing this. I lived right by where he lived when this happened. I look forward to listening and seeing your opinion on this case. I just want to say that I really appreciate the way you guys handle these cases. You are entertaining without ever seeming to exploit the people involved. My favorite parts are when the captain says something "funny" and Nic just ignores him. It makes me laugh every time. I love you both and you work so well together. Thanks and Cheers馃槉

  • Reb

    Reb

    I am going to wait until all four episodes are out to listen because I would go insane having to wait between episodes but... THANK YOU for attacking this truly frustrating, mind-blowing case !!!! (...Step-monster did it...)

    I am going to wait until all four episodes are out to listen because I would go insane having to wait between episodes but... THANK YOU for attacking this truly frustrating, mind-blowing case !!!! (...Step-monster did it...)

  • Bonnie

    Bonnie Colorado

    I have 3 kids under 5 and live out in the country so I'm used to them falling asleep in the car. I've ended up sitting in my driveway reading a book for an hour because the kids fell asleep and I didn't want to disrupt their nap- tired moms will do almost anything for an hour of peace and quiet - so if she was desperate to get a fussy baby to sleep and the continuous motion of the car was doing it- then I could see it as plausible. Or maybe she was listening to this awesome podcast and lost track of time ;)

    I have 3 kids under 5 and live out in the country so I'm used to them falling asleep in the car. I've ended up sitting in my driveway reading a book for an hour because the kids fell asleep and I didn't want to disrupt their nap- tired moms will do almost anything for an hour of peace and quiet - so if she was desperate to get a fussy baby to sleep and the continuous motion of the car was doing it- then I could see it as plausible. Or maybe she was listening to this awesome podcast and lost track of time wink

  • Natalie

    Natalie Indiana

    I have had two children, I use to drive my children around at max for 20.. to get them to sleep, it did work, and normally in my local area blocks from my house so i could get them into bed when i got home, a hour and a half is way too long, just my experience , if it didnt work after that i would have gone home and tried something else, but normally that normally worked easy, sometimes it only took 5 to 10 mins

    I have had two children, I use to drive my children around at max for 20.. to get them to sleep, it did work, and normally in my local area blocks from my house so i could get them into bed when i got home, a hour and a half is way too long, just my experience , if it didnt work after that i would have gone home and tried something else, but normally that normally worked easy, sometimes it only took 5 to 10 mins

  • Natalie

    Natalie Indiana

    Oh i wanted to add normally driving them around was for me a last resort and normally worked, if it had have taken longer and i couldnt have got my child down i would have prob called my pediatrician

    Oh i wanted to add normally driving them around was for me a last resort and normally worked, if it had have taken longer and i couldnt have got my child down i would have prob called my pediatrician

  • Sarah

    Sarah Belgium

    Driving around a child in pain is something I would never do. I have 3 children and I always hold them when they are in pain. Just give them time and love. I understand that not all parents are the same. But to drive around 1,5 hour because your child is in pain and then go to the gym?? Leaving your "sick" child with a babysitter at the gym? Nooo not in my world. The child was not sick at all( excuse to miss 1,5 hour of your day) or the mother just drags the child in pain everywhere. Cant wait to hear the rest. Greatings from Belgium

    Driving around a child in pain is something I would never do. I have 3 children and I always hold them when they are in pain. Just give them time and love. I understand that not all parents are the same. But to drive around 1,5 hour because your child is in pain and then go to the gym?? Leaving your "sick" child with a babysitter at the gym? Nooo not in my world.
    The child was not sick at all( excuse to miss 1,5 hour of your day) or the mother just drags the child in pain everywhere.
    Cant wait to hear the rest.
    Greatings from Belgium

  • Mary

    Mary CT

    To answer your question, yes, if a toddler has an earache and won't nap, it's not unheard of to drive him around for an extended time in the car hoping for sleep to set in. Sleeping upright is more comfortable with an earache and the motion of the car helps some little kids fall asleep and stay asleep. BTDT.

    To answer your question, yes, if a toddler has an earache and won't nap, it's not unheard of to drive him around for an extended time in the car hoping for sleep to set in. Sleeping upright is more comfortable with an earache and the motion of the car helps some little kids fall asleep and stay asleep. BTDT.

  • Carisa

    Carisa Connecticut

    You asked for feedback about driving young children around to get them to nap, and commented that perhaps an hour and a half was a long time to be unaccounted for on the grounds that the stepmother was "driving around." I have 2 young children (3 1/2 and 15 months) and although my daughter naps well in her crib, her older brother, as a rule, wouldn't nap anywhere but the car...and the car had to be running. So for about 2 1/2 years I would just load him in the car and drive around the neighborhood...usually about an hour, although sometimes I could get away with driving for 20 minutes and then just sitting with the car running in the driveway. However, many times he would wake up after 10 or 15 minutes, so if I wanted him to nap for more than a half hour (pretty important for little guys) I had to get back on the road and drive around some more. Also, sometimes it took him a while to fall asleep, so it would wind up being A LOT OF TIME in the car! I'm not saying it's totally unfounded to suspect that amount of time 鈥 certainly not, it's a big time window 鈥 it's just that, in my experience, it wouldn't be unheard of for me to spend 15 or 20 minutes getting my child to go to sleep using that method, then driving (sporadically sometimes) for another hour plus, especially if he was ill and I wanted him to get plenty of rest. Hope that's helpful!

    You asked for feedback about driving young children around to get them to nap, and commented that perhaps an hour and a half was a long time to be unaccounted for on the grounds that the stepmother was "driving around." I have 2 young children (3 1/2 and 15 months) and although my daughter naps well in her crib, her older brother, as a rule, wouldn't nap anywhere but the car...and the car had to be running. So for about 2 1/2 years I would just load him in the car and drive around the neighborhood...usually about an hour, although sometimes I could get away with driving for 20 minutes and then just sitting with the car running in the driveway. However, many times he would wake up after 10 or 15 minutes, so if I wanted him to nap for more than a half hour (pretty important for little guys) I had to get back on the road and drive around some more. Also, sometimes it took him a while to fall asleep, so it would wind up being A LOT OF TIME in the car! I'm not saying it's totally unfounded to suspect that amount of time 鈥 certainly not, it's a big time window 鈥 it's just that, in my experience, it wouldn't be unheard of for me to spend 15 or 20 minutes getting my child to go to sleep using that method, then driving (sporadically sometimes) for another hour plus, especially if he was ill and I wanted him to get plenty of rest. Hope that's helpful!

  • Ania

    Ania Poland

    finally, i was waiting for your opinion about that case

    finally, i was waiting for your opinion about that case

  • Sarah Bergman

    Sarah Bergman Bell Buckle, TN

    I call bullshit. A gym will not take a sick child. I know this for a fact. On top of that, 90 mins is extremely excessive to drive a kid around as I have 4. If there鈥檚 evidence the gym took that child, then there鈥檚 proof that child was not sick, therefore not requiring a 90 min drive to calm the child.

    I call bullshit. A gym will not take a sick child. I know this for a fact. On top of that, 90 mins is extremely excessive to drive a kid around as I have 4. If there鈥檚 evidence the gym took that child, then there鈥檚 proof that child was not sick, therefore not requiring a 90 min drive to calm the child.

  • Todd

    Todd

    It was stated early on that the step mom drove the truck so she could pack up the science project and take it home presumably in the bed of the truck. However, so far all we have is the step mom leaving the school and not attempting to take the project because the fair was not over. If that was her true reason for driving the truck, wouldn't she have stayed until the fair was over and pack up the project? Maybe she needed the bed of the truck to transport the injured/knocked out/dead body of the little boy without the young girl seeing it? I wouldn't think she would do something to the boy and then lay his body in the backseat of a car right next to his half sister. That's why she needed the truck that day. Just a thought.

    It was stated early on that the step mom drove the truck so she could pack up the science project and take it home presumably in the bed of the truck. However, so far all we have is the step mom leaving the school and not attempting to take the project because the fair was not over. If that was her true reason for driving the truck, wouldn't she have stayed until the fair was over and pack up the project? Maybe she needed the bed of the truck to transport the injured/knocked out/dead body of the little boy without the young girl seeing it? I wouldn't think she would do something to the boy and then lay his body in the backseat of a car right next to his half sister. That's why she needed the truck that day. Just a thought.

  • Jade Patterson

    Jade Patterson Georgia

    For the driving in the car with your kid that kind of just depends on your kid. Like my younger sister would only stay asleep if the car was moving. So anytime we stoped at a red light or if we were trying to get out of the car she'd wake up and start screaming but when I was a kid I apparently could be put in the car for 10 minutes and then I'd be knocked out for the night.

    For the driving in the car with your kid that kind of just depends on your kid. Like my younger sister would only stay asleep if the car was moving. So anytime we stoped at a red light or if we were trying to get out of the car she'd wake up and start screaming but when I was a kid I apparently could be put in the car for 10 minutes and then I'd be knocked out for the night.

  • Shannon

    Shannon Idaho

    I wanted to reply about my opinion on driving around for 1.5 hrs with the baby. As a parent that sounds normal to me to maybe want to listen to a podcast and get some sanity time while the baby sleeps in the car. But what is weird to me is that after the baby wakes up she takes her to a gym daycare. If your baby is fussy and not feeling well to the extent you need to drive around for her to rest, then I would have taken that baby home afterwards not to a daycare. That's just me. Thanks for all the great podcasts!

    I wanted to reply about my opinion on driving around for 1.5 hrs with the baby. As a parent that sounds normal to me to maybe want to listen to a podcast and get some sanity time while the baby sleeps in the car. But what is weird to me is that after the baby wakes up she takes her to a gym daycare. If your baby is fussy and not feeling well to the extent you need to drive around for her to rest, then I would have taken that baby home afterwards not to a daycare. That's just me. Thanks for all the great podcasts!

  • LouiseH

    LouiseH Michigan

    Who drops their kid off in a gym daycare after she was so sick she needed a very specific medicine and then spent such an excessive amount of time driving around to soothe sick kid? Mom of 3 here. 20 min max of a drive . If she was sicker than that I would have gone to urgent care. Super sketchy

    Who drops their kid off in a gym daycare after she was so sick she needed a very specific medicine and then spent such an excessive amount of time driving around to soothe sick kid? Mom of 3 here. 20 min max of a drive . If she was sicker than that I would have gone to urgent care. Super sketchy

  • Joel

    Joel Georgia

    Holy cow, what a bizarre family! I think the term you guys used was 鈥渂lended family.鈥 I鈥檒l say! I feel like I need a scorecard to keep up with this cast of characters. Sounds to me like the welfare if this poor kid was on no one鈥檚 To Do list.

    Holy cow, what a bizarre family! I think the term you guys used was 鈥渂lended family.鈥 I鈥檒l say! I feel like I need a scorecard to keep up with this cast of characters. Sounds to me like the welfare if this poor kid was on no one鈥檚 To Do list.

  • Celeste

    Celeste Illinois

    I have taught in an elementary school for over 16 years and see a real problem here. Attendance is taken within the first 15-20 mins. of the beginning of school and sent in to the school office. If Kyron was marked as absent and not called in as absent from the parents, the school secretaries would have called their contact numbers as soon as possible for him. Why weren't his parents called that morning? I can't believe a school would overlook something like this with all the safety features we have in place these days.

    I have taught in an elementary school for over 16 years and see a real problem here. Attendance is taken within the first 15-20 mins. of the beginning of school and sent in to the school office. If Kyron was marked as absent and not called in as absent from the parents, the school secretaries would have called their contact numbers as soon as possible for him. Why weren't his parents called that morning? I can't believe a school would overlook something like this with all the safety features we have in place these days.

  • Juli

    Juli SC

    So, "trying to soothe" a child by riding around for an hour and a half makes no sense, but if the child fell asleep, then yes, driving around for an hour and a half makes sense. If the car ride isn't working to soothe the child, I'm not going to keep riding around with an upset child. I have driven around for crazy amounts of time though with one of my sleeping children so they get the rest (and so do I).

    So, "trying to soothe" a child by riding around for an hour and a half makes no sense, but if the child fell asleep, then yes, driving around for an hour and a half makes sense. If the car ride isn't working to soothe the child, I'm not going to keep riding around with an upset child. I have driven around for crazy amounts of time though with one of my sleeping children so they get the rest (and so do I).

  • Juli

    Juli SC

    Oh, also, there are people, other moms etc, that I'll run into or see out, but I'm not going to have the same reaction to all of them. I'll either think, "let me go over and talk to them," or "I'll just wave to them," or "oh, please don't let them see me. " I can see what the woman meant by saying that the step-mom isn't someone that typically will stop to converse and get out pictures etc. with her.

    Oh, also, there are people, other moms etc, that I'll run into or see out, but I'm not going to have the same reaction to all of them. I'll either think, "let me go over and talk to them," or "I'll just wave to them," or "oh, please don't let them see me. " I can see what the woman meant by saying that the step-mom isn't someone that typically will stop to converse and get out pictures etc. with her.

  • Mandi

    Mandi

    Regarding your question for parents who have driven around to calm a child. I think you likely have a picture in your mind on how this should go. A parent drives their child around, the child drifts peacefully to sleep, the parent carries the sleeping child to bed, and then a nap ensues. I thought it would go this way until I had my own children. I can tell you, if her child is anything like my children, it didn't work out that way at all. Both of my children would fall asleep very well in a car, but if you so much as openned the car door or attempted to unbuckle the seat belt, they would wake up with no hope of going back to sleep. Giving her the benefit of the doubt, especially with an ill child, I don't think it is unreasonable for her to drive around to allow the child an hour long nap. Lord knows I've done it on several occassions! A good nap can make a huge difference in how the rest of the day can go.

    Regarding your question for parents who have driven around to calm a child. I think you likely have a picture in your mind on how this should go. A parent drives their child around, the child drifts peacefully to sleep, the parent carries the sleeping child to bed, and then a nap ensues. I thought it would go this way until I had my own children. I can tell you, if her child is anything like my children, it didn't work out that way at all. Both of my children would fall asleep very well in a car, but if you so much as openned the car door or attempted to unbuckle the seat belt, they would wake up with no hope of going back to sleep. Giving her the benefit of the doubt, especially with an ill child, I don't think it is unreasonable for her to drive around to allow the child an hour long nap. Lord knows I've done it on several occassions! A good nap can make a huge difference in how the rest of the day can go.

  • Los Angeleno

    Los Angeleno Los Angeles

    Out of respect for the victims and their families, would The Captain please consider decreasing the number of jokes? Even Nic ignores The Captain at times. Form listening to your Q&As, I can see The Captain is sympathetic to the victims, but it can be hard to remember that with all the wisecracks. You gotta be you, I get that. But the jokes diminish the somberness of the victim's plight and their family's suffering. Thank you for considering my respectful request. I didn't say "this is bad, cut all the jokes," I simply asked for The Captain to consider decreasing the number of jokes out of respect for the victims.

    Out of respect for the victims and their families, would The Captain please consider decreasing the number of jokes? Even Nic ignores The Captain at times. Form listening to your Q&As, I can see The Captain is sympathetic to the victims, but it can be hard to remember that with all the wisecracks. You gotta be you, I get that. But the jokes diminish the somberness of the victim's plight and their family's suffering. Thank you for considering my respectful request. I didn't say "this is bad, cut all the jokes," I simply asked for The Captain to consider decreasing the number of jokes out of respect for the victims.

  • Elizabeth

    Elizabeth New Orleans

    Captain!? Terry says there was a guy with him entering the school and you don't think that's changing the story or a big deal?!? That is a huge deal! Your child goes missing and you forget that they were next to a man??? I'm shocked how nonchalant you are about this? Enough that I stopped getting ready for work to comment on this

    Captain!? Terry says there was a guy with him entering the school and you don't think that's changing the story or a big deal?!? That is a huge deal! Your child goes missing and you forget that they were next to a man??? I'm shocked how nonchalant you are about this? Enough that I stopped getting ready for work to comment on this

  • Katie

    Katie Des Moines

    Driving a kid around to sleep is pretty normal in my circle of friends. My son (2 years old) falls asleep instantly in the car. If he's sick and irritable, the car is a go to method for me to help him get some sleep. As a parent, there's not much you can do to help a small child feel better when their sick (other than tylenol and snuggles). So if driving them around for two hours helps them sleep, which in turn helps them heal, I'm totally doing it! Terry driving around for an hour and a half seems super reasonable to me.

    Driving a kid around to sleep is pretty normal in my circle of friends. My son (2 years old) falls asleep instantly in the car. If he's sick and irritable, the car is a go to method for me to help him get some sleep. As a parent, there's not much you can do to help a small child feel better when their sick (other than tylenol and snuggles). So if driving them around for two hours helps them sleep, which in turn helps them heal, I'm totally doing it! Terry driving around for an hour and a half seems super reasonable to me.

  • Megan

    Megan Pinehurst

    Yeah, you don't take a sick baby to gym day care. That's parenting 101. I had a rough baby who would sleep in the car last resort. When they're sick & in pain, it often doesnt take too long for the car to put them to sleep because they're already pretty tired. I don't know much about the area where they live, but when I would drive my baby to soothe him I would select a mental location. Where I lived at the time any location other than my house was at minimum 30 minutes away. So, a round trip of an hour wasn't too much of a stretch.

    Yeah, you don't take a sick baby to gym day care. That's parenting 101. I had a rough baby who would sleep in the car last resort. When they're sick & in pain, it often doesnt take too long for the car to put them to sleep because they're already pretty tired.

    I don't know much about the area where they live, but when I would drive my baby to soothe him I would select a mental location. Where I lived at the time any location other than my house was at minimum 30 minutes away. So, a round trip of an hour wasn't too much of a stretch.

  • Jen

    Jen PA

    I've never had to drive my kids around to get them to sleep, but I know it's not unheard of. But 90 minutes? Seems excessive. The thing that sticks out to me is that her daughter was soooo sick that she had to drive to two different stores to get medicine and drive her around for 90 minutes, but then Terri dropped her off in the gym daycare? No way. Makes no sense.

    I've never had to drive my kids around to get them to sleep, but I know it's not unheard of. But 90 minutes? Seems excessive. The thing that sticks out to me is that her daughter was soooo sick that she had to drive to two different stores to get medicine and drive her around for 90 minutes, but then Terri dropped her off in the gym daycare? No way. Makes no sense.

  • Beth

    Beth Gerrard

    Oh my gosh no parent would forget a stranger with your child and you wouldn't be hanging out at the gym. She was showing pictures of him at the science fair to cover her tracks. She is hard core involved.

    Oh my gosh no parent would forget a stranger with your child and you wouldn't be hanging out at the gym. She was showing pictures of him at the science fair to cover her tracks. She is hard core involved.

  • Beth

    Beth Baltimore

    I am also confused about the reaction of the school. I worked in child care for years. If some kid didn't show up and the parents had not given us a written note we would have been in the phone contacting his parents to make sure we knew where he was.

    I am also confused about the reaction of the school. I worked in child care for years. If some kid didn't show up and the parents had not given us a written note we would have been in the phone contacting his parents to make sure we knew where he was.

  • Bonnie

    Bonnie

    To "Joel" who commented above- please don't assume a child isn't well cared for just because they are in a blended family. I grew up in a blended family with 5 kids and 4 different combinations of parents, and I am a mother and stepmother with kids that are half-siblings. All of the adults work hard at coparenting and always doing what's best for all the kids- in my opinion it's much better to have a happy blended family than a disfunctional traditional family. My kids just have more people who love them. I'm thankful people are more accepting now- I was definitely judged and singled out as a kid for coming from a "broken family" and no one should ever go through that.

    To "Joel" who commented above- please don't assume a child isn't well cared for just because they are in a blended family. I grew up in a blended family with 5 kids and 4 different combinations of parents, and I am a mother and stepmother with kids that are half-siblings. All of the adults work hard at coparenting and always doing what's best for all the kids- in my opinion it's much better to have a happy blended family than a disfunctional traditional family. My kids just have more people who love them. I'm thankful people are more accepting now- I was definitely judged and singled out as a kid for coming from a "broken family" and no one should ever go through that.

  • Caroline

    Caroline Clarksburg, MD

    Hey guys!!! I love your show. This case is so unsettling I wish we could find this poor boy. People always think I'm weird to be obsessed with true crime and be a woman. But you guys make me feel like I'm one of an elite group of detectives lol. I have always read books on Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy, BTK and all of the prolific killers. Your show is my new obsession. I would love to see you guys cover one of the first cases I ever read about, it was the Jeffrey MacDonald case from the 1970's. Pretty please:):):) I would love to grab a beer or two with you guys if you ever come to the Washington D.C. area!

    Hey guys!!! I love your show. This case is so unsettling I wish we could find this poor boy. People always think I'm weird to be obsessed with true crime and be a woman. But you guys make me feel like I'm one of an elite group of detectives lol. I have always read books on Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy, BTK and all of the prolific killers. Your show is my new obsession. I would love to see you guys cover one of the first cases I ever read about, it was the Jeffrey MacDonald case from the 1970's. Pretty pleasesmilesmilesmile I would love to grab a beer or two with you guys if you ever come to the Washington D.C. area!

  • Chris

    Chris Portland

    About Sauvie Island...it is obvious you are on the island when you're on the island. The only reason to go to Sauvie is to pick up produce from a farm or for recreation. Lots of quite, secluded places. However, there is a main road that passes by Sauvie so I could see how the cell phone could ping on the island without her actually being on the island.

    About Sauvie Island...it is obvious you are on the island when you're on the island. The only reason to go to Sauvie is to pick up produce from a farm or for recreation. Lots of quite, secluded places. However, there is a main road that passes by Sauvie so I could see how the cell phone could ping on the island without her actually being on the island.

  • Sarah

    Sarah

    You guys had questions about the landscaper. Terri said in a deposition (which I'm afraid I don't have a link to on this computer) that he was hired behind Kaine's back because Kaine was forcing her oldest son, James, to clean up the entire 5-acre property by himself. I don't know if it was some kind of punishment or just a chore or something, she didn't elaborate. It was just something he was supposed to do over the course of a month or two. But Terri thought that this was unfair, since he was only 15, so she hired the landscaper. She paid for him with the child support to come out 5 times and help James clean up the property, and then James took the credit for doing all of the work himself. It was stated in the court documents that she had made the same "overtures" to the landscaper that she did to Michael Cook...and those sexually graphic texts to HIM are available in court records. So, there was at LEAST flirting, possibly a lot more, going on with the landscaper. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of the assassination plot, though. The only other thing I wanted to say is that I hope you bring up the 800+ emails Terri sent her friend, talking about how much she hated Kyron and wished he was gone. So many people have never heard of them, since they haven't been released to the public, but the police have confirmed they exist, and Desiree claims to have read them. Kaine also claims to have seen them. They're such a huge factor as far as possible motives go that I really hope you bring it up next week. Anyway, thanks for taking on this case, guys! It's one of my "pet" cases that I look up every few months.

    You guys had questions about the landscaper. Terri said in a deposition (which I'm afraid I don't have a link to on this computer) that he was hired behind Kaine's back because Kaine was forcing her oldest son, James, to clean up the entire 5-acre property by himself. I don't know if it was some kind of punishment or just a chore or something, she didn't elaborate. It was just something he was supposed to do over the course of a month or two. But Terri thought that this was unfair, since he was only 15, so she hired the landscaper. She paid for him with the child support to come out 5 times and help James clean up the property, and then James took the credit for doing all of the work himself. It was stated in the court documents that she had made the same "overtures" to the landscaper that she did to Michael Cook...and those sexually graphic texts to HIM are available in court records. So, there was at LEAST flirting, possibly a lot more, going on with the landscaper. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of the assassination plot, though.

    The only other thing I wanted to say is that I hope you bring up the 800+ emails Terri sent her friend, talking about how much she hated Kyron and wished he was gone. So many people have never heard of them, since they haven't been released to the public, but the police have confirmed they exist, and Desiree claims to have read them. Kaine also claims to have seen them. They're such a huge factor as far as possible motives go that I really hope you bring it up next week.

    Anyway, thanks for taking on this case, guys! It's one of my "pet" cases that I look up every few months.

  • Juli

    Juli SC

    Yes, Elizabeth! No one can say who the man is? Our school, public, calls in the morning if the child is marked absent. Did this step mom typically take pictures of Kyron? Post them? Seems like sure probably just post pictures of herself and her daughter and all the working out they do.

    Yes, Elizabeth! No one can say who the man is? Our school, public, calls in the morning if the child is marked absent. Did this step mom typically take pictures of Kyron? Post them? Seems like sure probably just post pictures of herself and her daughter and all the working out they do.

  • Tiffany

    Tiffany Indiana

    Hi guys! A million thanks for doing this podcast and a million more for this particular one. I have a 14 yr old son so he is the same age as Kyron. This little boy and the situation for him and his family really touches me. Since Kyron has been missing there are occasions of looking at my son and being so grateful that I get to have him safe and sound another day, watching all the things he does, hearing the strange things that a 14 yr boys will say. So it truly hurts my heart to know this child has been taken away from his family. One question I was wondering though, if Terri told the teachers at Kyrons school he had a doctor appointment, could authorities verify that with the doctors office? Even if there was a lack of a scheduled appointment then any "wrong" day would be irrelevant and incorrect. Just a thought. I love you guys and you're doing great things!

    Hi guys! A million thanks for doing this podcast and a million more for this particular one. I have a 14 yr old son so he is the same age as Kyron. This little boy and the situation for him and his family really touches me. Since Kyron has been missing there are occasions of looking at my son and being so grateful that I get to have him safe and sound another day, watching all the things he does, hearing the strange things that a 14 yr boys will say. So it truly hurts my heart to know this child has been taken away from his family. One question I was wondering though, if Terri told the teachers at Kyrons school he had a doctor appointment, could authorities verify that with the doctors office? Even if there was a lack of a scheduled appointment then any "wrong" day would be irrelevant and incorrect. Just a thought. I love you guys and you're doing great things!

  • Mosey

    Mosey

    Forget driving the kid around. I remember my daughter being sick and up all night and me feeling helpless. About 5am I woke dad. Told him I was going for a drive, the baby was asleep. 20minutes to my self was a needed decompress.

    Forget driving the kid around. I remember my daughter being sick and up all night and me feeling helpless. About 5am I woke dad. Told him I was going for a drive, the baby was asleep. 20minutes to my self was a needed decompress.

  • K

    K PNW

    Hi guys! Great job so far on the case. I am from PDX and grew up five miles from the skyline area. I have heard so many botched summaries and podcasts about this case and wanted to let you know how spot on you guys are so far. Also, while I (and basically all of PNW) think Terri Horman is guilty, I appreciate you presenting the information without that bias. However, a few details that seem minute but also lend considerable weight to the case : 鈥 TH has reported she is 'deaf' in one ear. Tbis may be why her police interviews seemed more rigorous and longer than others, as her father insinuated to people. TH has also contributed this hearing defiency and reliance on lip reading as why she failed her polygraph. 鈥 To add to the landscaper confusing story, TH has also stated that he barely spoke English and she could never fully communicate with him. 鈥 Dede Spicher. I really hope you will be covering this component of the case. Also, Suavie island is connected to land in various places. I suppose you could drive onto it and not realize you were on an island. Not if you were from here though. These are just contributions/details that came to mind. Can't wait for the other two episodes!

    Hi guys! Great job so far on the case. I am from PDX and grew up five miles from the skyline area. I have heard so many botched summaries and podcasts about this case and wanted to let you know how spot on you guys are so far. Also, while I (and basically all of PNW) think Terri Horman is guilty, I appreciate you presenting the information without that bias. However, a few details that seem minute but also lend considerable weight to the case :
    鈥 TH has reported she is 'deaf' in one ear. Tbis may be why her police interviews seemed more rigorous and longer than others, as her father insinuated to people. TH has also contributed this hearing defiency and reliance on lip reading as why she failed her polygraph.
    鈥 To add to the landscaper confusing story, TH has also stated that he barely spoke English and she could never fully communicate with him.
    鈥 Dede Spicher. I really hope you will be covering this component of the case.

    Also, Suavie island is connected to land in various places. I suppose you could drive onto it and not realize you were on an island. Not if you were from here though.
    These are just contributions/details that came to mind. Can't wait for the other two episodes!

  • Julie

    Julie VA

    Hi everyone! I just wanted to say that I've read that Terri had called the school earlier that week to say that Kyron would be absent Friday for a doctor's appointment. That's why no one at the school marked him down as being unexcused absent and that's why no one called the parents to say he wasn't at school. Later, when Terri was asked about it, she said the appointment was for the following Friday, but she didn't specify a date to the school she just said "Friday". Personally I don't think the school did anything wrong. His stepmom was the last person to see him. I think the podcast is awesome! Thank you for so many great episodes!

    Hi everyone! I just wanted to say that I've read that Terri had called the school earlier that week to say that Kyron would be absent Friday for a doctor's appointment. That's why no one at the school marked him down as being unexcused absent and that's why no one called the parents to say he wasn't at school. Later, when Terri was asked about it, she said the appointment was for the following Friday, but she didn't specify a date to the school she just said "Friday". Personally I don't think the school did anything wrong. His stepmom was the last person to see him.
    I think the podcast is awesome! Thank you for so many great episodes!

  •  Zach

    Zach Portland

    [quote=Chris ] About Sauvie Island...it is obvious you are on the island when you're on the island. The only reason to go to Sauvie is to pick up produce from a farm or for recreation. Lots of quite, secluded places. However, there is a main road that passes by Sauvie so I could see how the cell phone could ping on the island without her actually being on the island. [/quote] You also forgot about the nudist section of the beach. People go there for that too. Gotta keep Portland weird ya know.

    Chris wrote:

    About Sauvie Island...it is obvious you are on the island when you're on the island. The only reason to go to Sauvie is to pick up produce from a farm or for recreation. Lots of quite, secluded places. However, there is a main road that passes by Sauvie so I could see how the cell phone could ping on the island without her actually being on the island.

    You also forgot about the nudist section of the beach. People go there for that too. Gotta keep Portland weird ya know.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Thank you K for the detailed info. Also as always thank you to EVERYONE for contributing to this great discussion. Cheers, Nic

    Thank you K for the detailed info. Also as always thank you to EVERYONE for contributing to this great discussion.
    Cheers,
    Nic

  • Josh

    Josh Los Angeles

    True Crime Garage used to be one of my favorite true crime podcasts, but since you started stretching episodes into two-parters they've really started to drag on. I get that some cases have a lot of information that can't be covered in one episode but when you start focusing on irrelevant details, it can get really ponderous (i.e. the entire marriage history of Kyron Horman's parents). If was half way through the episode before you guys even started discussing the actual case. I've had a hard time getting through these latest episodes. It's too bad because I really used to look forward to listening to the show every week and there just aren't that many good true crime podcasts out there.

    True Crime Garage used to be one of my favorite true crime podcasts, but since you started stretching episodes into two-parters they've really started to drag on. I get that some cases have a lot of information that can't be covered in one episode but when you start focusing on irrelevant details, it can get really ponderous (i.e. the entire marriage history of Kyron Horman's parents). If was half way through the episode before you guys even started discussing the actual case. I've had a hard time getting through these latest episodes. It's too bad because I really used to look forward to listening to the show every week and there just aren't that many good true crime podcasts out there.

  • Myra Freeman

    Myra Freeman Asheville, NC

    Hey guys, my thought about the doctors appointment is that if the appointment was for the next Friday, why would she tell the teachers. The last day of school was the next Tuesday. I so enjoy your podcast!!! Thank you guys, Myra Freeman

    Hey guys, my thought about the doctors appointment is that if the appointment was for the next Friday, why would she tell the teachers. The last day of school was the next Tuesday.
    I so enjoy your podcast!!!
    Thank you guys,
    Myra Freeman

  • Gale

    Gale Kentucky

    Who cares what the parents are doing? Law enforcement is playing them all like a fiddle. None of it mattered. Probably a friendly stranger in the school that day talked the little boy outside. Cops can't solve these quickly, so they tore people apart and did they ole, I hoped one confessed. Didn't work, but you sure as hell broke up families for your failure. No one cares about these silly adults, none of what was presented was evidence besides a neighborhood hook up. Not illegal, and happens every day. Start from the beginning, I hope the school was processed properly and talk to the students now. They are older, maybe someone will remember something or some one that needs to be followed up on.

    Who cares what the parents are doing? Law enforcement is playing them all like a fiddle. None of it mattered.

    Probably a friendly stranger in the school that day talked the little boy outside. Cops can't solve these quickly, so they tore people apart and did they ole, I hoped one confessed. Didn't work, but you sure as hell broke up families for your failure. No one cares about these silly adults, none of what was presented was evidence besides a neighborhood hook up. Not illegal, and happens every day.

    Start from the beginning, I hope the school was processed properly and talk to the students now. They are older, maybe someone will remember something or some one that needs to be followed up on.

  • Taylor

    Taylor NV

    I have a baby who ALWAYS falls asleep in the car. I've never had to drive around to put him to sleep, usually just cuddling with him does the trick, but i feel like 90 minutes is way too long to be driving around. I agree with others above, driving around until they fall asleep and hanging out in the driveway is more practical. Also, if a child has an earache don't you need a prescription for medicine? I could be wrong but i dont think you can just by medicine for that in the store. Even my husband has had to get a scrip for his earache. I dunno, that part seems a lil fishy to me. I also agree with Sarah, most daycare facilities will not take a child who is sick. Whether it be an ear infection or cold or even a cough. I've worked at a daycare and we usually would have the child stay home anywhere between 24-48hrs depending on the sickness/medicine they would have to take.

    I have a baby who ALWAYS falls asleep in the car. I've never had to drive around to put him to sleep, usually just cuddling with him does the trick, but i feel like 90 minutes is way too long to be driving around. I agree with others above, driving around until they fall asleep and hanging out in the driveway is more practical. Also, if a child has an earache don't you need a prescription for medicine? I could be wrong but i dont think you can just by medicine for that in the store. Even my husband has had to get a scrip for his earache. I dunno, that part seems a lil fishy to me. I also agree with Sarah, most daycare facilities will not take a child who is sick. Whether it be an ear infection or cold or even a cough. I've worked at a daycare and we usually would have the child stay home anywhere between 24-48hrs depending on the sickness/medicine they would have to take.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Hi Myra, Kyron's went missing on Friday, June 4 the last day of the 2010 school year was Tuesday, June 15 so more than a week later. Cheers, Nic

    Hi Myra,
    Kyron's went missing on Friday, June 4 the last day of the 2010 school year was Tuesday, June 15 so more than a week later.
    Cheers,
    Nic

  • Todd

    Todd

    I think Terri is behind all of this and confessed to Dee Dee or had help from her . I am no attorney, but if you answer any questions, does that waive your fifth amendment rights? That may be why Dee Dee did not answer even the simplest questions. If she answered a question and then tried to assert her fifth amendment rights, she may have opened herself up to a contempt of court charge .

    I think Terri is behind all of this and confessed to Dee Dee or had help from her . I am no attorney, but if you answer any questions, does that waive your fifth amendment rights? That may be why Dee Dee did not answer even the simplest questions. If she answered a question and then tried to assert her fifth amendment rights, she may have opened herself up to a contempt of court charge .

  • Gigi

    Gigi Virginia

    Have they searched the property of the people Terri's friend (DeeDee?) was working at the day Kyron disappeared??

    Have they searched the property of the people Terri's friend (DeeDee?) was working at the day Kyron disappeared??

  • Sunshine

    Sunshine Oregon

    I live less than 5 miles from the school Kyron went missing from and used the same gym that they did...and I am a parent with a similarly aged child. #1 the gym checked everyone in and they did have daycare, that would have been checked in as well. #2 Kyron was in 2nd grade, not middle school. Attendance was taken once, in the morning...first thing. The super odd thing to me is that his parents were not called, but it could have been a busy attendance day. This has happened to me, 99.999% of the time the kid is just sick (once again 2nd grade not middle school). #3 PTA/PTO mom are "observant". Portland is hippy dippy, ingredient checking, helicopter parenting, "observant" parenting. Where there is a divide between free range parenting and helicopter parents that leaves everyone judging how involved everyone else is. IF a 2nd grader was allowed to walk freely around a school during an open event SOMEONE would have remembered it and commented. Along the same lines, if there was a stranger there who watched the kids weird, was with no kid or talked to kids alone SOMEONE would have commented. I was on the PTO during these kinds of events. I knew when someone was strange and did not belong. The staff was more than likely there greeting EVERYONE that entered the building. I would say the only way Kyron left is with a parent or step-parent.

    I live less than 5 miles from the school Kyron went missing from and used the same gym that they did...and I am a parent with a similarly aged child.
    #1 the gym checked everyone in and they did have daycare, that would have been checked in as well.
    #2 Kyron was in 2nd grade, not middle school. Attendance was taken once, in the morning...first thing. The super odd thing to me is that his parents were not called, but it could have been a busy attendance day. This has happened to me, 99.999% of the time the kid is just sick (once again 2nd grade not middle school).
    #3 PTA/PTO mom are "observant". Portland is hippy dippy, ingredient checking, helicopter parenting, "observant" parenting. Where there is a divide between free range parenting and helicopter parents that leaves everyone judging how involved everyone else is. IF a 2nd grader was allowed to walk freely around a school during an open event SOMEONE would have remembered it and commented. Along the same lines, if there was a stranger there who watched the kids weird, was with no kid or talked to kids alone SOMEONE would have commented. I was on the PTO during these kinds of events. I knew when someone was strange and did not belong. The staff was more than likely there greeting EVERYONE that entered the building. I would say the only way Kyron left is with a parent or step-parent.

  • Jamie Letter

    Jamie Letter Portland, OR

    I live 10 min from Skyline and have been following this case the entire time Kyron has been missing. I don鈥檛 think I know anyone in OR who doesn鈥檛 believe Terri Horman was responsible for his disappearance. Today, it was brought up: why didn鈥檛 the landscaper come forth initially when she talking about hiring him to kill her husband. I don鈥檛 know anything about Mr. Sanchez but it鈥檚 possible that he鈥檚 undocumented and here illegally. Undocumented people often do not want any interaction with the police because they are afraid of being deported (even though local police don鈥檛 get involved in ICE investigations- they don鈥檛 know that or count on that). I have always thought that his citizenship might have something to do with the delay in reporting. This whole story breaks my heart. I hope he is found and Terri is held accountable.

    I live 10 min from Skyline and have been following this case the entire time Kyron has been missing. I don鈥檛 think I know anyone in OR who doesn鈥檛 believe Terri Horman was responsible for his disappearance. Today, it was brought up: why didn鈥檛 the landscaper come forth initially when she talking about hiring him to kill her husband. I don鈥檛 know anything about Mr. Sanchez but it鈥檚 possible that he鈥檚 undocumented and here illegally. Undocumented people often do not want any interaction with the police because they are afraid of being deported (even though local police don鈥檛 get involved in ICE investigations- they don鈥檛 know that or count on that). I have always thought that his citizenship might have something to do with the delay in reporting. This whole story breaks my heart. I hope he is found and Terri is held accountable.

  • Erik

    Erik Iowa

    Love you guys, long time listener, first time commenter (except for the occasional cheers to Nic on untappd). Only commenting because I know a lot about the hearing/lie detector test. You addressed this but I thought I'd add my two cents as a hearing scientist. We use the same test as a lie detector test a lot in hearing research to measure listening effort. The idea is the same as it is with a lie detector test: if you are exerting more mental effort, you are more stressed, you sweat more, and therefore have greater skin conductance. So we use skin conductance to try and measure how hard a person has to try to hear and understand everything being said. Any type of hearing loss can increase the effort required to listen - certainly one deaf ear would do it, one deaf ear and one impaired ear would do it even more. But even some people with "normal hearing" have to try harder than others to understand speech, which increases their skin conductance. This test in hearing research faces all the same problems the lie detector test does: namely, it doesn't measure listening effort and it doesn't measure lying. It measures changes in skin conductance. This is a specific but indirect measure of very unspecific things like honesty and effort. What even is listening effort? There is a lot of debate about this. Is it stress? Is it increased attention? Is it a greater strain on working memory? There is no consensus. Same thing with the lie detector test. We make the assumption that changes in skin conductance is a sign of stress which is a sign of lying. But is it? Who knows. It could also be an increase in listening effort. It could be an increase in a bunch of things. You could startle the person. You could evoke a painful memory. The temperature in the room could change. The test is affected by environmental factors like air temperature and also by physiological factors like tiredness, etc. It can yield interesting information if you have a very controlled space and you test a whole bunch of people in the exact same conditions with the exact same test and you do some clever stats analysis. But...as an individual test it's really useless. It's why we don't use it to test hearing in clinical settings for one person and it's also why lie detectors are useless for criminal cases. Not to say she isn't guilty, but that's the deal with the deafness and the lie detector.

    Love you guys, long time listener, first time commenter (except for the occasional cheers to Nic on untappd).

    Only commenting because I know a lot about the hearing/lie detector test. You addressed this but I thought I'd add my two cents as a hearing scientist.

    We use the same test as a lie detector test a lot in hearing research to measure listening effort. The idea is the same as it is with a lie detector test: if you are exerting more mental effort, you are more stressed, you sweat more, and therefore have greater skin conductance. So we use skin conductance to try and measure how hard a person has to try to hear and understand everything being said.

    Any type of hearing loss can increase the effort required to listen - certainly one deaf ear would do it, one deaf ear and one impaired ear would do it even more. But even some people with "normal hearing" have to try harder than others to understand speech, which increases their skin conductance.

    This test in hearing research faces all the same problems the lie detector test does: namely, it doesn't measure listening effort and it doesn't measure lying. It measures changes in skin conductance. This is a specific but indirect measure of very unspecific things like honesty and effort. What even is listening effort? There is a lot of debate about this. Is it stress? Is it increased attention? Is it a greater strain on working memory? There is no consensus. Same thing with the lie detector test. We make the assumption that changes in skin conductance is a sign of stress which is a sign of lying. But is it? Who knows. It could also be an increase in listening effort. It could be an increase in a bunch of things. You could startle the person. You could evoke a painful memory. The temperature in the room could change.

    The test is affected by environmental factors like air temperature and also by physiological factors like tiredness, etc. It can yield interesting information if you have a very controlled space and you test a whole bunch of people in the exact same conditions with the exact same test and you do some clever stats analysis. But...as an individual test it's really useless. It's why we don't use it to test hearing in clinical settings for one person and it's also why lie detectors are useless for criminal cases.

    Not to say she isn't guilty, but that's the deal with the deafness and the lie detector.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    @ Gigi Yes the property Dede was working at was searched this would have been roughly in the timeframe of about 4 -8 weeks after Kyron's disappearance Nic

    @ Gigi
    Yes the property Dede was working at was searched this would have been roughly in the timeframe of about 4 -8 weeks after Kyron's disappearance
    Nic

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    @ Sunshine Thank you for the info but did I miss something? We stated Kyron's attended a shared 2nd/3rd class. Thanks, Nic

    @ Sunshine
    Thank you for the info but did I miss something? We stated Kyron's attended a shared 2nd/3rd class.
    Thanks,
    Nic

  • Reb

    Reb USA

    Such a great episode 鈥 another terribly frustrating case because I think more or less everyone knows who鈥檚 responsible, but there鈥檚 just never been that lynch pin to get the step-mom. A few things that I wanted to point out: 1. Convening a grand jury does not necessarily mean that the prosecutors are seeking an indictment. It can also be used to compel uncooperative witnesses to testify (under oath, on the record, subject to penalty of perjury). This could have been applicable here, although the proceedings are secret so there is no way to know the motives are for convening the original jury. 2. A person can take the 5th amendment with respect to a particular question, while answering other questions. The use of the 5th Amendment in such a blanket manner here is most likely a tactic to avoid shedding light on which specific question that the prosecutors asked was the incriminating one. 3. Skyline used to be relatively rural, but there has been massive development up there during Kyron鈥檚 life and after he went missing, which really undermines the wandering off theory, because it is hard to believe that his body wouldn鈥檛 be found as all the housing developments and other growth that has exploded up there over the past few year. 4. You can鈥檛 get onto Sauvie鈥檚 Island and not know you are on Sauvie鈥檚 Island. That being said, if you are driving up 30, you have hills (some high!) on the other side of the road 鈥 so it does seem possible that the towers on flat-as-a-pancake Sauvie鈥檚 Island would pick up the signal from 30 before towers in the hills. 5. You didn鈥檛 mention two things: another boyfriend/partner accused step-mom of trying to hire someone to kill him I the early 90s. And, as a matter of legal record, another boyfriend has a permanent restraining order against her. 6. As for the 鈥渓andscaper鈥, given what I remember from the time, I don鈥檛 think this moniker actually illuminates the situation. I think its better to say he was a day laborer, not someone running a landscaping business. More power to him, don鈥檛 get me wrong. But, it might also illuminate why Kaine didn鈥檛 know about it and why she would have felt more comfortable asking him to whack Kaine (he鈥檚 not exactly running a formal landscaping business). I tried to look for the source on this, but I remember at the time hearing that he was here illegally 鈥 which didn鈥檛 have the hot button implications that it has now. There were a lot of people coming in and out of Mexico, etc. during that time for day labor and farm/agricultural work. No one really cared. But it would have been an impediment to him going to the police with a random story of some whacky broad talking about theoretically whacking her husband 鈥 until the boy went missing and Sht got Real. As always, you guys are awesome! Request: Michael Franke! A lot of people in Oregon still think there was a lot more to this story than meets the eye. And, there are some good tawdry details to boot!

    Such a great episode 鈥 another terribly frustrating case because I think more or less everyone knows who鈥檚 responsible, but there鈥檚 just never been that lynch pin to get the step-mom. A few things that I wanted to point out:

    1. Convening a grand jury does not necessarily mean that the prosecutors are seeking an indictment. It can also be used to compel uncooperative witnesses to testify (under oath, on the record, subject to penalty of perjury). This could have been applicable here, although the proceedings are secret so there is no way to know the motives are for convening the original jury.
    2. A person can take the 5th amendment with respect to a particular question, while answering other questions. The use of the 5th Amendment in such a blanket manner here is most likely a tactic to avoid shedding light on which specific question that the prosecutors asked was the incriminating one.
    3. Skyline used to be relatively rural, but there has been massive development up there during Kyron鈥檚 life and after he went missing, which really undermines the wandering off theory, because it is hard to believe that his body wouldn鈥檛 be found as all the housing developments and other growth that has exploded up there over the past few year.
    4. You can鈥檛 get onto Sauvie鈥檚 Island and not know you are on Sauvie鈥檚 Island. That being said, if you are driving up 30, you have hills (some high!) on the other side of the road 鈥 so it does seem possible that the towers on flat-as-a-pancake Sauvie鈥檚 Island would pick up the signal from 30 before towers in the hills.
    5. You didn鈥檛 mention two things: another boyfriend/partner accused step-mom of trying to hire someone to kill him I the early 90s. And, as a matter of legal record, another boyfriend has a permanent restraining order against her.
    6. As for the 鈥渓andscaper鈥, given what I remember from the time, I don鈥檛 think this moniker actually illuminates the situation. I think its better to say he was a day laborer, not someone running a landscaping business. More power to him, don鈥檛 get me wrong. But, it might also illuminate why Kaine didn鈥檛 know about it and why she would have felt more comfortable asking him to whack Kaine (he鈥檚 not exactly running a formal landscaping business). I tried to look for the source on this, but I remember at the time hearing that he was here illegally 鈥 which didn鈥檛 have the hot button implications that it has now. There were a lot of people coming in and out of Mexico, etc. during that time for day labor and farm/agricultural work. No one really cared. But it would have been an impediment to him going to the police with a random story of some whacky broad talking about theoretically whacking her husband 鈥 until the boy went missing and Sht got Real.

    As always, you guys are awesome! Request: Michael Franke! A lot of people in Oregon still think there was a lot more to this story than meets the eye. And, there are some good tawdry details to boot!

  • Hayley

    Hayley

    With all the stuff floating around about kids dying in hot cars, I'm surprised someone hasn't wondered about if she left him in the hot car. Just with all the driving around that she was doing, I have to wonder about that. I'm not familiar with Seattle summers though. Just another rabbit hole to maybe jump down.

    With all the stuff floating around about kids dying in hot cars, I'm surprised someone hasn't wondered about if she left him in the hot car. Just with all the driving around that she was doing, I have to wonder about that. I'm not familiar with Seattle summers though. Just another rabbit hole to maybe jump down.

  • Sunshine

    Sunshine Oregon

    Nic, the comments about 2nd grade, not middle school, is because the way the media talked about it he had several classes. Homeroom being the one he didn't check into. 2nd grade kids have many subjects, and maybe a couple of teachers, but the kids do not changes classes like in middle school. The students spend their day together for the most part. He was marked absent for the day during the only time when they take attendance in elementary school. The media report portray it as he missed several classes. One teacher, one opportunity to say absent or present (unless he came late, but that is tardy, and adjusted by the office). I had only listened to episode 1 when I posted that, so now I know why the school didn't contact the parents. That is not unusual. I also wanted to add, although I don't think Terri is innocent, when my kids had ear infections I would have driven for HOURS to let them sleep. When a child has been up for too long, that time in the car could be the only peace and quiet you get.

    Nic, the comments about 2nd grade, not middle school, is because the way the media talked about it he had several classes. Homeroom being the one he didn't check into. 2nd grade kids have many subjects, and maybe a couple of teachers, but the kids do not changes classes like in middle school. The students spend their day together for the most part. He was marked absent for the day during the only time when they take attendance in elementary school. The media report portray it as he missed several classes. One teacher, one opportunity to say absent or present (unless he came late, but that is tardy, and adjusted by the office).
    I had only listened to episode 1 when I posted that, so now I know why the school didn't contact the parents. That is not unusual.

    I also wanted to add, although I don't think Terri is innocent, when my kids had ear infections I would have driven for HOURS to let them sleep. When a child has been up for too long, that time in the car could be the only peace and quiet you get.

  • B

    B Madison, WI

    The stepmom definitely seems guilty but there's always a chance a stranger walked away with him. Although, I find it hard to believe that he walked away or was taken without anyone seeing, given the area (the school looks relatively secluded, far from the road) and the increased number of people at the school that day. That being said, he was dropped off at his class 1 hour before it started and predators often know what they are doing and can easily go unnoticed. My gut tells me she left with him and dropped him off with someone on her drive; who knows what happened to him then. I believe her trips to the store could be real but it's also very convenient. I think it's plausible she could have left him in the truck without anyone noticing, people do it (or at least used to) all the time. Do we know what she bought? Could the medicine she bought for her daughter have been given to Kyron to drug him? Then she goes off driving for a while. Yes, it's perfectly reasonable to drive your kid around to settle them down/get them to sleep BUT then you take them to the gym daycare?! I also think the truck excuse is a little weird assuming she didn't bring the science project back with her. But she could have easily thought she was taking it with her and then realized she wouldn't be. I think what we do know is that she's manipulative and she has secrets. That doesn't make her a murderer but it's not a stretch to think she asked someone to help her out, her BFF seems oddly involved. I hope there is closure some day.

    The stepmom definitely seems guilty but there's always a chance a stranger walked away with him. Although, I find it hard to believe that he walked away or was taken without anyone seeing, given the area (the school looks relatively secluded, far from the road) and the increased number of people at the school that day. That being said, he was dropped off at his class 1 hour before it started and predators often know what they are doing and can easily go unnoticed.

    My gut tells me she left with him and dropped him off with someone on her drive; who knows what happened to him then. I believe her trips to the store could be real but it's also very convenient. I think it's plausible she could have left him in the truck without anyone noticing, people do it (or at least used to) all the time. Do we know what she bought? Could the medicine she bought for her daughter have been given to Kyron to drug him? Then she goes off driving for a while. Yes, it's perfectly reasonable to drive your kid around to settle them down/get them to sleep BUT then you take them to the gym daycare?! I also think the truck excuse is a little weird assuming she didn't bring the science project back with her. But she could have easily thought she was taking it with her and then realized she wouldn't be. I think what we do know is that she's manipulative and she has secrets. That doesn't make her a murderer but it's not a stretch to think she asked someone to help her out, her BFF seems oddly involved. I hope there is closure some day.

  • Aspen

    Aspen New Hampshire

    I don鈥檛 have kids so I can鈥檛 comment on the whole driving the baby around thing, but it all sounds like a red herring to me. I hate to think of that cute little boy being hurt by someone he trusted but all signs point to the stepmother. I guess what I really don鈥檛 get is why....what could this sweet, smart little guy possibly do to bring about that level of anger? So sad.

    I don鈥檛 have kids so I can鈥檛 comment on the whole driving the baby around thing, but it all sounds like a red herring to me. I hate to think of that cute little boy being hurt by someone he trusted but all signs point to the stepmother. I guess what I really don鈥檛 get is why....what could this sweet, smart little guy possibly do to bring about that level of anger? So sad.

  • M

    M Oregon

    I'm a big fan of the show and was thrilled to see this case be covered. I've lived within a few miles of Skyline School and the Horman residence for the last 20 years so I know this area well. I have a tough time forgetting this case because I'm reminded of it several times every week as I use the same gym that Kaine and Terri used and there's a memorial area outside the gym for Kyron. I did want to correct some incorrect information from K above regarding Sauvie Island. You can't accidentally drive onto the island without knowing that you're on the island. There is only one way to access the island by car and that's by crossing over the Sauvie Island Bridge. You have to turn off Highway 30 and onto the bridge at a stoplight so you know when you've made that turn. The bridge is 360 ft long and has some big overhead trusses that make it pretty obvious you're on a bridge. Something else about the bridge that I only ever saw mentioned in one place on Reddit is that when it was rebuilt in 2008 a camera was installed that records each vehicle that crosses and supposedly (according to this same Reddit post) the white truck Terri was driving never crossed the bridge. The existence of the camera can be verified; the information that Terri never crossed the bridge I would consider unverified. Whether or not Terri was on Sauvie's Island that day, if she was driving on Highway 30 at all that day, her cell signal could have definitely bounced off the cell tower nearest to Sauvie's Island. Highway 30 is less than 2 miles from the Horman home and the Sauvie Island bridge is not more than 4 miles from the Horman home so it actually wouldn't surprise me if their cell signals bounce off that same tower nearest to Sauvie's Island fairly often when they're at home. Also, not sure if it was mentioned on the show, but Terri now lives in Northern California and it was in California that she's had the latest round of legal issues with the gun theft. I hope some day this case is solved and justice is served. Unfortunately with as much time that has now passed, the only way I think this case will get closure is if Kyron is found.

    I'm a big fan of the show and was thrilled to see this case be covered. I've lived within a few miles of Skyline School and the Horman residence for the last 20 years so I know this area well. I have a tough time forgetting this case because I'm reminded of it several times every week as I use the same gym that Kaine and Terri used and there's a memorial area outside the gym for Kyron.

    I did want to correct some incorrect information from K above regarding Sauvie Island. You can't accidentally drive onto the island without knowing that you're on the island. There is only one way to access the island by car and that's by crossing over the Sauvie Island Bridge. You have to turn off Highway 30 and onto the bridge at a stoplight so you know when you've made that turn. The bridge is 360 ft long and has some big overhead trusses that make it pretty obvious you're on a bridge.

    Something else about the bridge that I only ever saw mentioned in one place on Reddit is that when it was rebuilt in 2008 a camera was installed that records each vehicle that crosses and supposedly (according to this same Reddit post) the white truck Terri was driving never crossed the bridge. The existence of the camera can be verified; the information that Terri never crossed the bridge I would consider unverified. Whether or not Terri was on Sauvie's Island that day, if she was driving on Highway 30 at all that day, her cell signal could have definitely bounced off the cell tower nearest to Sauvie's Island. Highway 30 is less than 2 miles from the Horman home and the Sauvie Island bridge is not more than 4 miles from the Horman home so it actually wouldn't surprise me if their cell signals bounce off that same tower nearest to Sauvie's Island fairly often when they're at home.

    Also, not sure if it was mentioned on the show, but Terri now lives in Northern California and it was in California that she's had the latest round of legal issues with the gun theft.

    I hope some day this case is solved and justice is served. Unfortunately with as much time that has now passed, the only way I think this case will get closure is if Kyron is found.

  • SB

    SB

    This case is a real mystery. I think the step-mother is the most likely culprit, but don't understand how she was able to pull off the perfect murder or disappearance. There were hundreds of people searching for the child almost immediately after school. Federal Law Enforcement flooded onto the scene and opened a very wide investigation. I am just amazed that they found no evidence against the step-mother beyond a polygraph and some inconsistent statements coupled with odd behavior. It is virtually impossible to get away with these kind of crimes in 2017. I am just amazed there isn't more to go on here. I also don't understand why the step-mother would even bother taking the kid to school, for the science fair, and then leave with him...this would almost certainly open her up to witnesses, so why risk it. For example, by taking Kyron to the science fair and then leaving with him, she just increases the chances another parent sees them leaving together, or that a camera at the school, or nearby bank would capture them together. So if you are planning on killing your stepson, it would be far easier to just do it in the home, that AM, and say he went missing from there. There is a big risk to take the kid to school, then leave with him. If one person saw them leave, and the step-mother maintained she dropped him off and left alone, her whole story falls apart. Why risk that.? However, I am going to go with Occam's razor here. To suggest anyone other than the step-mother was responsible for the disappearance, would require us to multiply the variables beyond necessity. It would require a bold kidnapper carrying out the perfect crime, at a very busy school where plenty of witnesses exist. I don't find that plausible. I am guessing the step-mother had to quickly render the child unconscious or dead and dispose of him in a body of water. However, I heard on the podcasts that water was searched by divers, so again, I am at a loss on this one. I think she did it, I just don't know how, and am puzzled that she could escape Federal Investigators. They have far more resources and training than local departments.

    This case is a real mystery. I think the step-mother is the most likely culprit, but don't understand how she was able to pull off the perfect murder or disappearance. There were hundreds of people searching for the child almost immediately after school. Federal Law Enforcement flooded onto the scene and opened a very wide investigation. I am just amazed that they found no evidence against the step-mother beyond a polygraph and some inconsistent statements coupled with odd behavior. It is virtually impossible to get away with these kind of crimes in 2017. I am just amazed there isn't more to go on here.

    I also don't understand why the step-mother would even bother taking the kid to school, for the science fair, and then leave with him...this would almost certainly open her up to witnesses, so why risk it. For example, by taking Kyron to the science fair and then leaving with him, she just increases the chances another parent sees them leaving together, or that a camera at the school, or nearby bank would capture them together. So if you are planning on killing your stepson, it would be far easier to just do it in the home, that AM, and say he went missing from there. There is a big risk to take the kid to school, then leave with him. If one person saw them leave, and the step-mother maintained she dropped him off and left alone, her whole story falls apart. Why risk that.?

    However, I am going to go with Occam's razor here. To suggest anyone other than the step-mother was responsible for the disappearance, would require us to multiply the variables beyond necessity. It would require a bold kidnapper carrying out the perfect crime, at a very busy school where plenty of witnesses exist. I don't find that plausible.

    I am guessing the step-mother had to quickly render the child unconscious or dead and dispose of him in a body of water. However, I heard on the podcasts that water was searched by divers, so again, I am at a loss on this one. I think she did it, I just don't know how, and am puzzled that she could escape Federal Investigators. They have far more resources and training than local departments.

  • Jules

    Jules Saint Paul, MN, USA

    Very good job on this one. I can't help but suspect that Terri knows what happened to Kyron. Desiree has commented that he was a cautious child who didn't take risks, so it would have been difficult for a stranger to lure him away from that school. But the science fair provided a great opportunity to "stage" a kidnapping because the school was open to the public. Terri made sure Kyron was seen there -- she made sure she posted a time-dated photo of him to Facebook. Then there was the driving around. I've driven my son around for nearly that long when he had colic; earaches called for antibiotics and bedrest -- I would have thought that the vibration would make an earache worse, but I've read comments from other parents who said otherwise, so I'll concede that her explanation is plausible. What I think is important though is that the very next thing that she did was to go somewhere -- the gym -- where her presence would be documented. Maybe I've listened to too much true crime, but her behavior is suggestive of someone wanting to create an alibi for herself. If I had to go to the gym (and I completely understand this, exercise is my favorite coping mechanism), I'd get that out of the way first, THEN I'd do the drive. Of course she's innocent until proven guilty, but based on just the facts at hand, I'd at least want to ask her some more questions. We're all hoping against hope for a miracle, or at the very least for the truth. These cases with kids are so hard -- I need to build a wall in my brain so I won't fall to pieces. The humor doesn't bother me, on the contrary it helps keep me sane and it's never directed at the victims. Also like the longer episodes. Keep up the great work & thank you -- j.

    Very good job on this one. I can't help but suspect that Terri knows what happened to Kyron. Desiree has commented that he was a cautious child who didn't take risks, so it would have been difficult for a stranger to lure him away from that school. But the science fair provided a great opportunity to "stage" a kidnapping because the school was open to the public. Terri made sure Kyron was seen there -- she made sure she posted a time-dated photo of him to Facebook. Then there was the driving around. I've driven my son around for nearly that long when he had colic; earaches called for antibiotics and bedrest -- I would have thought that the vibration would make an earache worse, but I've read comments from other parents who said otherwise, so I'll concede that her explanation is plausible. What I think is important though is that the very next thing that she did was to go somewhere -- the gym -- where her presence would be documented. Maybe I've listened to too much true crime, but her behavior is suggestive of someone wanting to create an alibi for herself. If I had to go to the gym (and I completely understand this, exercise is my favorite coping mechanism), I'd get that out of the way first, THEN I'd do the drive. Of course she's innocent until proven guilty, but based on just the facts at hand, I'd at least want to ask her some more questions. We're all hoping against hope for a miracle, or at the very least for the truth. These cases with kids are so hard -- I need to build a wall in my brain so I won't fall to pieces. The humor doesn't bother me, on the contrary it helps keep me sane and it's never directed at the victims. Also like the longer episodes. Keep up the great work & thank you -- j.

  • Amanda

    Amanda Nashville, TN

    I don鈥檛 think driving the baby around for so long is odd. Sometimes there鈥檚 not much you can do with a fussy baby and you will do just about anything to soothe the child. I had a baby with chronic ear infections and that is the one condition that is either miserable or fine. The child can be miserable and then be completely fine once the acetaminophen/ibuprofen kicks in. It is also about the only condition that does not prevent a child from going to childcare since it鈥檚 not contagious. I have a tough time thinking Terri is guilty just because she is dumb and gets caught at just about everything. She鈥檚 not exactly a criminal mastermind and I don鈥檛 see where she would鈥檝e been able to kill and dispose of Kyron without being caught, especially in the fairly short window of time. The landscaper hitman claim is ridiculous. The landscaper doesn鈥檛 speak English and Terri doesn鈥檛 speak Spanish, so how would that go down? I mean I鈥檝e never tried to hire a hitman, but I would assume it鈥檚 a fairly complicated conversation. I鈥檓 not sure that Terri鈥檚 innocent, but I don鈥檛 see her guilt in what鈥檚 been publicized. Just like you鈥檇 think someone would notice Kyron going off with a strange person, you鈥檇 think someone would鈥檝e seen him leaving with Terri. It would鈥檝e been odd to have him at the school and then leaving, so someone would鈥檝e likely noticed. Although I鈥檓 the parent that totally wouldn鈥檛 notice pretty much anything. When my kids have events at their elementary, there are too many people there to really keep up with. We have been at the same small school for 4 years now and I still don鈥檛 know all the kids and especially not their parents. I would likely only notice if it was someone I know or something was 鈥渙ff鈥 enough to get my attention.

    I don鈥檛 think driving the baby around for so long is odd. Sometimes there鈥檚 not much you can do with a fussy baby and you will do just about anything to soothe the child. I had a baby with chronic ear infections and that is the one condition that is either miserable or fine. The child can be miserable and then be completely fine once the acetaminophen/ibuprofen kicks in. It is also about the only condition that does not prevent a child from going to childcare since it鈥檚 not contagious.

    I have a tough time thinking Terri is guilty just because she is dumb and gets caught at just about everything. She鈥檚 not exactly a criminal mastermind and I don鈥檛 see where she would鈥檝e been able to kill and dispose of Kyron without being caught, especially in the fairly short window of time.

    The landscaper hitman claim is ridiculous. The landscaper doesn鈥檛 speak English and Terri doesn鈥檛 speak Spanish, so how would that go down? I mean I鈥檝e never tried to hire a hitman, but I would assume it鈥檚 a fairly complicated conversation. I鈥檓 not sure that Terri鈥檚 innocent, but I don鈥檛 see her guilt in what鈥檚 been publicized. Just like you鈥檇 think someone would notice Kyron going off with a strange person, you鈥檇 think someone would鈥檝e seen him leaving with Terri. It would鈥檝e been odd to have him at the school and then leaving, so someone would鈥檝e likely noticed. Although I鈥檓 the parent that totally wouldn鈥檛 notice pretty much anything. When my kids have events at their elementary, there are too many people there to really keep up with. We have been at the same small school for 4 years now and I still don鈥檛 know all the kids and especially not their parents. I would likely only notice if it was someone I know or something was 鈥渙ff鈥 enough to get my attention.

  • Amanda

    Amanda Nashville

    鈥淭eflon stepmom鈥 馃槀 Easy, Nic Nancy Grace. Just listened to the Suspects episode and I think the Sauvie Island pings were debunked. From what I remember, that tower served a huge area back at the time of Kyron鈥檚 disappearance so those pings don鈥檛 mean Terri was at that location. I agree that Terri is selfish and give a side eye to her changing stories. However, her being narcissistic doesn鈥檛 make her guilty in Kyron鈥檚 disappearance. Trust, I was raised by narcissists and while they might be generally terrible people, I鈥檓 99% sure they aren鈥檛 criminals. I think Terri鈥檚 a hot mess, with emphasis on the mess. Messy people generally don鈥檛 get away with stuff, but I guess there鈥檚 always an exception. I鈥檓 just not convinced she鈥檚 guilty based on what鈥檚 out there. I鈥檇 hope investigation isn鈥檛 being limited by its focus on Terri because you could miss the real bad guy. I also know there probably more to the investigation that we don鈥檛 know and maybe that鈥檚 where I鈥檇 be convinced. Kyron is the focus here and he only gets justice and closure if we find the person responsible from keeping him from returning to his loved ones, whoever that may be.

    鈥淭eflon stepmom鈥 馃槀 Easy, Nic Nancy Grace.

    Just listened to the Suspects episode and I think the Sauvie Island pings were debunked. From what I remember, that tower served a huge area back at the time of Kyron鈥檚 disappearance so those pings don鈥檛 mean Terri was at that location.

    I agree that Terri is selfish and give a side eye to her changing stories. However, her being narcissistic doesn鈥檛 make her guilty in Kyron鈥檚 disappearance. Trust, I was raised by narcissists and while they might be generally terrible people, I鈥檓 99% sure they aren鈥檛 criminals.

    I think Terri鈥檚 a hot mess, with emphasis on the mess. Messy people generally don鈥檛 get away with stuff, but I guess there鈥檚 always an exception. I鈥檓 just not convinced she鈥檚 guilty based on what鈥檚 out there. I鈥檇 hope investigation isn鈥檛 being limited by its focus on Terri because you could miss the real bad guy. I also know there probably more to the investigation that we don鈥檛 know and maybe that鈥檚 where I鈥檇 be convinced. Kyron is the focus here and he only gets justice and closure if we find the person responsible from keeping him from returning to his loved ones, whoever that may be.

  • Mark

    Mark Austin

    The FBI is brought in and as a result, the stepmom becomes the focus of the investigation. The FBI kind of has experience in these kind of matters. And Nic, you were so right to bring up the point that the stepmom was clearly trying to set up an alibi in the grocery store. When a person you normally have no contact with whatsoever goes out of her way in a grocery store to show you pictures on her phone of some inane event like a science fair (which it kind of was), she is clearly setting up an alibi.

    The FBI is brought in and as a result, the stepmom becomes the focus of the investigation. The FBI kind of has experience in these kind of matters. And Nic, you were so right to bring up the point that the stepmom was clearly trying to set up an alibi in the grocery store. When a person you normally have no contact with whatsoever goes out of her way in a grocery store to show you pictures on her phone of some inane event like a science fair (which it kind of was), she is clearly setting up an alibi.

  • Agent Summer

    Agent Summer Minneapolis, MN

    Just curious, did Terry Horman's friend purchase the burner cell phones before or after Kyron's disappearance? Timing on this would make a HUGE difference. If it was prior, that could certainly have been a way Terry communicated with her friends as part of a way of getting rid of her stepson. Again, yet another indication of her guilt. If after, her story about hiding conversations from police who were trying to pin this on her makes a little more sense. However, why hide your conversations if you're innocent and have nothing to hide in the first place?!?

    Just curious, did Terry Horman's friend purchase the burner cell phones before or after Kyron's disappearance? Timing on this would make a HUGE difference. If it was prior, that could certainly have been a way Terry communicated with her friends as part of a way of getting rid of her stepson. Again, yet another indication of her guilt. If after, her story about hiding conversations from police who were trying to pin this on her makes a little more sense. However, why hide your conversations if you're innocent and have nothing to hide in the first place?!?

  • Jeanette

    Jeanette Brussels

    Great episode! I know that there are some amazing stepmoms and dads out there, but from personal experience, if in doubt never leave your child into someone else's care and fight to get them with you. The fact that Kyron was crying and begging to stay with his mum is also a big red flag. Something was not right in his house. Kyron was in distress for a reason.

    Great episode! I know that there are some amazing stepmoms and dads out there, but from personal experience, if in doubt never leave your child into someone else's care and fight to get them with you. The fact that Kyron was crying and begging to stay with his mum is also a big red flag. Something was not right in his house. Kyron was in distress for a reason.

  • TCfan10

    TCfan10 Los Angeles

    1. Why hasn't Turtle been named a suspect? are there specific criteria for the police to take a lead on this? 2. Camera at the Sauvie Island bridge might not show the white truck Turtle was driving but maybe there was another car used? 3. Turtle checked into the gym, at what time did she check out? is there surveillance? 4. Have the burner phone conversations been made public? 5. If traces of Kyron, expired body was not found in Turtle's car, it's not say he wasn't in her car hurt, knocked out? (sleeping pills) 6. Have heard that Turtle has had the top of the line/BEST legal team in Oregon as she is well off...or her family is. Maybe having family that can shell ash helps the Turtle duck out and never get charged.

    1. Why hasn't Turtle been named a suspect? are there specific criteria for the police to take a lead on this?
    2. Camera at the Sauvie Island bridge might not show the white truck Turtle was driving but maybe there was another car used?
    3. Turtle checked into the gym, at what time did she check out? is there surveillance?
    4. Have the burner phone conversations been made public?
    5. If traces of Kyron, expired body was not found in Turtle's car, it's not say he wasn't in her car hurt, knocked out? (sleeping pills)
    6. Have heard that Turtle has had the top of the line/BEST legal team in Oregon as she is well off...or her family is. Maybe having family that can shell ash helps the Turtle duck out and never get charged.

  • Jennifer

    Jennifer Tennessee

    I have to defend my Captain just a little in response to Los Angelo 's comment. I listen to several true crime podcasts and TCG is my favorite in part because of the wisecracks. The Captain is never disrespectful to victims it's the jerky suspects that get bashed. Captain, I love you just the way you are. Don't ever change.

    I have to defend my Captain just a little in response to Los Angelo 's comment. I listen to several true crime podcasts and TCG is my favorite in part because of the wisecracks. The Captain is never disrespectful to victims it's the jerky suspects that get bashed. Captain, I love you just the way you are. Don't ever change.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Answers... 1. The burner phones- 3 phones were purchased on two separate dates. I'm not 100 percent but I believe both dates were after Kyron went missing. 2. Suspect status...the more sophisticated jurisdictions typical don't "name" suspects. They simply arrest and indict them. In some cases "suspect" status means a certain sharing of information. This probably shouldn't happen until the person is arrested. 3. Turtle checked into the gym but the gym members are not required to check out. There is some debate as to how long she was actually there. 4. They do not have the burner phone conversations. So they cannot make them public

    Answers...
    1. The burner phones- 3 phones were purchased on two separate dates. I'm not 100 percent but I believe both dates were after Kyron went missing.
    2. Suspect status...the more sophisticated jurisdictions typical don't "name" suspects. They simply arrest and indict them. In some cases "suspect" status means a certain sharing of information. This probably shouldn't happen until the person is arrested.
    3. Turtle checked into the gym but the gym members are not required to check out. There is some debate as to how long she was actually there.
    4. They do not have the burner phone conversations. So they cannot make them public

  • Lisa

    Lisa Dallas, TX

    I am kind of a new listener. Love you guys. Just finished the series, thank you for keeping Kyron's case out there. I remember when this happened and I have thought about him over the years. Random memory, there was a People magazine article on the case right after it happened and remember that Kyron had a cat I think named Boots who would meet him at the school bus stop every day. He must have been a sweet boy. WHERE IS HE? I loved that Nic got all bent of out shape at the end, I am in total agreement with him. Sometimes I think we should let his mom have a baseball bat in a locked room with the stepmom, see if she talks then. OK I need my coffee, I am getting too dark. Thanks again.

    I am kind of a new listener. Love you guys. Just finished the series, thank you for keeping Kyron's case out there. I remember when this happened and I have thought about him over the years. Random memory, there was a People magazine article on the case right after it happened and remember that Kyron had a cat I think named Boots who would meet him at the school bus stop every day. He must have been a sweet boy. WHERE IS HE? I loved that Nic got all bent of out shape at the end, I am in total agreement with him. Sometimes I think we should let his mom have a baseball bat in a locked room with the stepmom, see if she talks then. OK I need my coffee, I am getting too dark. Thanks again.

  • Bec

    Bec MI

    Do we know for sure that the baby was ever actually seen or checked in at the gym drop-in care? The gym visit doesn't add up for me. Also, I am deaf in one year, and have constant tinnitus and am pretty certain it would not cause me to fail a polygraph. In a quiet room with 1 on 1 conversation, even with the person behind me, I would not have a problem hearing normal conversational tones. I can't talk on the phone using my bad year, and headphones don't work, and I can't hear whispering or anything in that ear, but otherwise, you would ever know I have any problems.

    Do we know for sure that the baby was ever actually seen or checked in at the gym drop-in care? The gym visit doesn't add up for me.

    Also, I am deaf in one year, and have constant tinnitus and am pretty certain it would not cause me to fail a polygraph. In a quiet room with 1 on 1 conversation, even with the person behind me, I would not have a problem hearing normal conversational tones. I can't talk on the phone using my bad year, and headphones don't work, and I can't hear whispering or anything in that ear, but otherwise, you would ever know I have any problems.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Hi Bec, Yes it has been confirmed that she and the baby checked in at the gym that. What is still in question the is the time they left. There could be a discrepancy of 30-35 minutes. Thanks for the insight, Nic

    Hi Bec,
    Yes it has been confirmed that she and the baby checked in at the gym that. What is still in question the is the time they left. There could be a discrepancy of 30-35 minutes.
    Thanks for the insight,
    Nic

  • Barbara

    Barbara Kansas City

    This case broke my heart. I just can鈥檛 understand how he can just disappear from school. I feel like it was either done by someone he knows, or someone who was following him. Or it was a crime of opportunity. But in a school, to me that would be a difficult place to grab a kid. There are plenty of kids there, but there are also lots of adults, plus if he would have tried to get away, someone would have heard him, right? Maybe he left the school on his own? If a child is not in school and no one calls in saying they would be out, shouldn鈥檛 the school call to make sure he is ok? I know that at my schools that was the procedure in case you were skipping. I feel like the school has some responsibility. And the idea that the step mother did this because he was ruining her relationship with her husband, is awful. His mother wanted Kyron to live with her, why wouldn鈥檛 Terry just convince her husband to let him live with his mother? That would have been easier than hiring this 鈥済ardner鈥 to kill her husband or making the kid disappear. Maybe gardner is code word for weed dealer (I am not accusing her of doing drugs, just throwing around some ideas). Also, why would she act so suspiciously and not cooperate with the police? Something about her is not quite righy and she just acts guilty. Maybe she isn鈥檛, but she isn鈥檛 doing a great job of proving otherwise. Someone out there knows where he is and I hope he is found soon and I hope he is alive. I thought you guys did a great job telling this story (as usual), it鈥檚 my #1 all time favorite podcast! I get sad when the weekly episodes are over and I am stuck listening to other podcasts while I work. I think my friends get sick of me saying 鈥渙n my podcast I鈥檓 listening to...鈥 I am always recommending you to my true crime fan friends and even to people that don鈥檛 like it! Thanks for your well researched and high quality content and for the appropriate amount of wit and humor on such a sad subject.

    This case broke my heart. I just can鈥檛 understand how he can just disappear from school. I feel like it was either done by someone he knows, or someone who was following him. Or it was a crime of opportunity. But in a school, to me that would be a difficult place to grab a kid. There are plenty of kids there, but there are also lots of adults, plus if he would have tried to get away, someone would have heard him, right? Maybe he left the school on his own? If a child is not in school and no one calls in saying they would be out, shouldn鈥檛 the school call to make sure he is ok? I know that at my schools that was the procedure in case you were skipping. I feel like the school has some responsibility.
    And the idea that the step mother did this because he was ruining her relationship with her husband, is awful. His mother wanted Kyron to live with her, why wouldn鈥檛 Terry just convince her husband to let him live with his mother? That would have been easier than hiring this 鈥済ardner鈥 to kill her husband or making the kid disappear. Maybe gardner is code word for weed dealer (I am not accusing her of doing drugs, just throwing around some ideas). Also, why would she act so suspiciously and not cooperate with the police? Something about her is not quite righy and she just acts guilty. Maybe she isn鈥檛, but she isn鈥檛 doing a great job of proving otherwise. Someone out there knows where he is and I hope he is found soon and I hope he is alive.
    I thought you guys did a great job telling this story (as usual), it鈥檚 my #1 all time favorite podcast! I get sad when the weekly episodes are over and I am stuck listening to other podcasts while I work. I think my friends get sick of me saying 鈥渙n my podcast I鈥檓 listening to...鈥 I am always recommending you to my true crime fan friends and even to people that don鈥檛 like it! Thanks for your well researched and high quality content and for the appropriate amount of wit and humor on such a sad subject.

  • Brooke

    Brooke Waynesville NC

    I remember when this case happened, I was working at a grocery store while I was still a college student and everyday on my breaks I would borrow a magazine to read, this one was plastered all over the covers... So excited to listen to this and get some more details on this tragedy.

    I remember when this case happened, I was working at a grocery store while I was still a college student and everyday on my breaks I would borrow a magazine to read, this one was plastered all over the covers... So excited to listen to this and get some more details on this tragedy.

  • Elizabeth

    Elizabeth Knoxville

    Idk but the stepmom seems like a red herring. I understand the focus but I wish it would have been to other areas as well. What was her motive. How could she dispose of the child with a toddler in such a short amount of time. Just seems like she's a cheater like her husband and not a killer.

    Idk but the stepmom seems like a red herring.
    I understand the focus but I wish it would have been to other areas as well. What was her motive. How could she dispose of the child with a toddler in such a short amount of time. Just seems like she's a cheater like her husband and not a killer.

  • Stephen

    Stephen

    Apologies I am a little late listening to the shows and posting. Two points - certainly this is a disfunctional family with Terri being incredibly dishonest. I however don't see a motive for murder (usually money or sex). I was a little surprised that you didn't explore/discuss the paedophile angle more. They will target childen from exactly this sort of family. I would look at the friends of Terri that are ... suspicious such as Dee Dee she would be my "person of interest"

    Apologies I am a little late listening to the shows and posting. Two points - certainly this is a disfunctional family with Terri being incredibly dishonest. I however don't see a motive for murder (usually money or sex). I was a little surprised that you didn't explore/discuss the paedophile angle more. They will target childen from exactly this sort of family. I would look at the friends of Terri that are ... suspicious such as Dee Dee she would be my "person of interest"

  • Alexis

    Alexis Massachusetts

    Someone else touched on this above, but I'm skeptical about the rationale for driving her husband's car that day. If the reason was to bring home the science fair exhibit, it seems she would have either stayed until the end of the fair or picked him up from school that day. But she only says she stayed 45 minutes and Kyron was supposed to take the bus home. So why drive that car? I think whether or not it's suspicious to bring your kid with an ear ache to a gym daycare just depends on the kid and the situation. If the kid was feeling better after the nap and not contagious then I could see wanting a break to let someone else watch my kid for a while. To me this part of her story is a little odd but not a definitive red flag. Also, regarding the 90 minute drive while her daughter was napping, I think it's been established by other commenters that it's not out of the question for her to drive around that long. However, I'm not convinced that a 90-minute drive needs to mean your whereabouts are unaccounted for that entire period. If I'm stuck in my car while one of my kids is sleeping (there's actually a term for this, "nap trapped") I could at least recount my specific whereabouts. E.g. "I drove to X neighborhood where it's scenic and took this specific route" or "I pulled over at X park to read once she fell asleep." Just because you're out driving doesn't mean you can't remember the approximate times when you hit certain landmarks, and I would think that with all the security cameras on businesses and traffic cameras that her story could be verified if true. My point being, if the investgators weren't able to corroborate her version of her drive, I think she is lying about either being out for a drive for that whole time or where she went on the drive.

    Someone else touched on this above, but I'm skeptical about the rationale for driving her husband's car that day. If the reason was to bring home the science fair exhibit, it seems she would have either stayed until the end of the fair or picked him up from school that day. But she only says she stayed 45 minutes and Kyron was supposed to take the bus home. So why drive that car?

    I think whether or not it's suspicious to bring your kid with an ear ache to a gym daycare just depends on the kid and the situation. If the kid was feeling better after the nap and not contagious then I could see wanting a break to let someone else watch my kid for a while. To me this part of her story is a little odd but not a definitive red flag.

    Also, regarding the 90 minute drive while her daughter was napping, I think it's been established by other commenters that it's not out of the question for her to drive around that long. However, I'm not convinced that a 90-minute drive needs to mean your whereabouts are unaccounted for that entire period. If I'm stuck in my car while one of my kids is sleeping (there's actually a term for this, "nap trapped") I could at least recount my specific whereabouts. E.g. "I drove to X neighborhood where it's scenic and took this specific route" or "I pulled over at X park to read once she fell asleep." Just because you're out driving doesn't mean you can't remember the approximate times when you hit certain landmarks, and I would think that with all the security cameras on businesses and traffic cameras that her story could be verified if true. My point being, if the investgators weren't able to corroborate her version of her drive, I think she is lying about either being out for a drive for that whole time or where she went on the drive.

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