Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders /// 3 Part Series

39 comments

  • Deb

    Deb NH

    Great show guys. Tragic story. I'm wondering, the terry cloth item, could it have been a homemade item one of the girl campers brought with them? Was it shown to the parents? The same with the red flash light....was it one of the campers? Binding the girls with cords & duct tape seems a bit much. One of those in & of themselves would have sufficed, I would imagine. It leaves me feeling like who ever did this may not have a lot of experience. Does the home owner have any older children or relatives familar with the property? I think he might know who is breaking in. Get a guard dog! Maybe the murderer grew up on/near the property so they know the camping schedule. Anybody check the director & her husband's shoe sizes? Just considering every angle. I guess no one checked the other sleeping bags because they figured if one child was dead then they all were. Those are my unprofessional opinions. Can't understand why someone would take the counselors pocketbook(s). Seems unorganized in action - is that intentional to throw people off or they were just reacting as they were going along? Well thanks for allowing my input. Maybe part ll will have some answers?

    Great show guys. Tragic story. I'm wondering, the terry cloth item, could it have been a homemade item one of the girl campers brought with them? Was it shown to the parents? The same with the red flash light....was it one of the campers? Binding the girls with cords & duct tape seems a bit much. One of those in & of themselves would have sufficed, I would imagine. It leaves me feeling like who ever did this may not have a lot of experience.
    Does the home owner have any older children or relatives familar with the property? I think he might know who is breaking in. Get a guard dog! Maybe the murderer grew up on/near the property so they know the camping schedule. Anybody check the director & her husband's shoe sizes? Just considering every angle.
    I guess no one checked the other sleeping bags because they figured if one child was dead then they all were.
    Those are my unprofessional opinions. Can't understand why someone would take the counselors pocketbook(s). Seems unorganized in action - is that intentional to throw people off or they were just reacting as they were going along?
    Well thanks for allowing my input.
    Maybe part ll will have some answers?

  • Patrik

    Patrik Sweden

    I cant find the volume button.

    I cant find the volume button.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Hi Deb - you posted some great questions. You will find many answers in parts 2 & 3 Cheers Nic

    Hi Deb - you posted some great questions. You will find many answers in parts 2 & 3
    Cheers Nic

  • RACHEL

    RACHEL AMHERST, OH

    So I love camping. Have camped in the Redwoods, in 25 degree Wisconsin weather on the banks of the Mississippi, and even little local podunk sites that are just some farmer with a pond renting out his field. However, since I have become a mom, I have gone camping only once and it was without my kids. Even though my kids beg me to take them, and I secretly feel soooooo guilty for keeping them from fun things because of my fears, I still refuse to take them. And this story, along with the story of Suzie Jaeger being cut out of her tent by serial killer David Meirhofer back in the 70's, sleeping right under her parents noses, is the reason why. That and the one time I went as a mom, a coyote wondered up to my little two person tent in the middle of the night and pinned my head between the one wall of the tent and the ground while he sniffed my head to see if I was delicious or not. Felt like an eternity. But anyways, at the end of the day, what most people don't realize is that killers are hunters, and like any good hunter, they catch their prey unaware and oblivious to their presence. I am not going to make it easy for anyone to get my babies by placing us outdoors, asleep, with only a thin layer of canvas between them and danger. Shame that's the world we live in, but it is. By the way, Meirhofer was one of the first cases that was profiled by the FBI.

    So I love camping. Have camped in the Redwoods, in 25 degree Wisconsin weather on the banks of the Mississippi, and even little local podunk sites that are just some farmer with a pond renting out his field. However, since I have become a mom, I have gone camping only once and it was without my kids. Even though my kids beg me to take them, and I secretly feel soooooo guilty for keeping them from fun things because of my fears, I still refuse to take them. And this story, along with the story of Suzie Jaeger being cut out of her tent by serial killer David Meirhofer back in the 70's, sleeping right under her parents noses, is the reason why. That and the one time I went as a mom, a coyote wondered up to my little two person tent in the middle of the night and pinned my head between the one wall of the tent and the ground while he sniffed my head to see if I was delicious or not. Felt like an eternity. But anyways, at the end of the day, what most people don't realize is that killers are hunters, and like any good hunter, they catch their prey unaware and oblivious to their presence. I am not going to make it easy for anyone to get my babies by placing us outdoors, asleep, with only a thin layer of canvas between them and danger. Shame that's the world we live in, but it is. By the way, Meirhofer was one of the first cases that was profiled by the FBI.

  • Anon

    Anon N/A

    It looks like Part 2 didn't make it to stitcher...

    It looks like Part 2 didn't make it to stitcher...

  • I listen via Stitcher Premium. Part 3 is up but part 2 is MIA.

    I listen via Stitcher Premium. Part 3 is up but part 2 is MIA.

  • john

    john France

    Part 3 at 36.41 Captain states "how can you be railroaded when you please guilty" Nic says "right" Are you guys serious????? come on guys are you both high or drunk or what, this is the dumbest thing said on your podcast and any podcast ever. Thousands of innocent people are railroaded to plead guilty but there is a tinge of racism in this podcast today , i'm sorry but there just is . Only white people get railroaded to admit crimes they didn't commit I guess , so am , what time is your clan meeting tonight captain?

    Part 3 at 36.41 Captain states "how can you be railroaded when you please guilty" Nic says "right"

    Are you guys serious????? come on guys are you both high or drunk or what, this is the dumbest thing said on your podcast and any podcast ever. Thousands of innocent people are railroaded to plead guilty but there is a tinge of racism in this podcast today , i'm sorry but there just is . Only white people get railroaded to admit crimes they didn't commit I guess , so am , what time is your clan meeting tonight captain?

  • Zack Davis

    Zack Davis Los Angeles

    Interesting episode this week. Heartbreaking story can’t help but mourn for those poor girls. What I find to be most intriguing are the girl’s reports of different things around the camp? We’re any of these things reported you’d think it being the first night of camp someone would be awake to secure the campground.. seems suspicious. I can’t help but think the killer knew these girls or was involved at this camp. I’ve read about our main suspect plenty but still am drawn to thinking this is a person people at the camp recognized and it did not raise any alarms? How do you go into a tent of 3 girls without one screaming? Of particular note again was that the killer seemed to target Milner the most of the 3 children and even left the body out for people to walk upon. Why? Why are the other 2 covered up almost shamefully? Does it have something to do with Milner being African American? In a case as messed up and horrifying as this I just wish we had more answers. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of these young ladies. Great episode, really makes you think.

    Interesting episode this week. Heartbreaking story can’t help but mourn for those poor girls. What I find to be most intriguing are the girl’s reports of different things around the camp? We’re any of these things reported you’d think it being the first night of camp someone would be awake to secure the campground.. seems suspicious. I can’t help but think the killer knew these girls or was involved at this camp. I’ve read about our main suspect plenty but still am drawn to thinking this is a person people at the camp recognized and it did not raise any alarms? How do you go into a tent of 3 girls without one screaming?
    Of particular note again was that the killer seemed to target Milner the most of the 3 children and even left the body out for people to walk upon. Why? Why are the other 2 covered up almost shamefully? Does it have something to do with Milner being African American? In a case as messed up and horrifying as this I just wish we had more answers. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of these young ladies. Great episode, really makes you think.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Hello John, We agree that there have been false confessions through the years. However what’s with the racism stuff? We looked at this particular incident and took it for what it clearly was. A man who was so unbelievably horrible that he premeditated the abduction and rape of two pregnant women. Then he left them in a remote area, hog tied in a manner that they would most likely strangle themselves before being found. He was picked up because one victim provided the plate number to his vehicle. Without this they would have never known this monster. We are not perfect but we are certainly not racists. I would never ask you to believe me that we are not racists. What I ask you is do you believe these two innocent pregnant women that were abducted, raped and left for dead... do you believe they lied about the vehicle plate number, description of the attacker and vehicle were false??? Well then if you believe that the problem with our statement then lies with either the two victim’s or with you. - Nic

    Hello John,
    We agree that there have been false confessions through the years. However what’s with the racism stuff? We looked at this particular incident and took it for what it clearly was. A man who was so unbelievably horrible that he premeditated the abduction and rape of two pregnant women. Then he left them in a remote area, hog tied in a manner that they would most likely strangle themselves before being found. He was picked up because one victim provided the plate number to his vehicle. Without this they would have never known this monster. We are not perfect but we are certainly not racists. I would never ask you to believe me that we are not racists. What I ask you is do you believe these two innocent pregnant women that were abducted, raped and left for dead... do you believe they lied about the vehicle plate number, description of the attacker and vehicle were false??? Well then if you believe that the problem with our statement then lies with either the two victim’s or with you.
    - Nic

  • J.M. Bee

    J.M. Bee Tampa

    Great episode as always, guys. One thing, though: why don't you state the status of a case --- i.e., whether it is solved or unsolved --- at the beginning of your discussion of the case? It's kind of weird not to. After all, that's an important piece of information, and telling the audience the status of the case would provide a better framework for the discussion, because it doesn't make sense to discuss a solved case in the same way one would discuss an unsolved one. Except that you guys often do, which sometimes confuses me. For me, when discussing a solved case, you are discussing the crime, the setting / backdrop of the crime, the crime scene, the evidence, the investigation, the breaks in the case and the arrest; when discussing an unsolved crime, however, you are discussing 1 - 5 of the above, but you are then discussing the leading theories of the crime, your own theory of the crime, possible additional lines of inquiry, etc. But IMO, you should state --- and the audience should know --- whether the case is a solved or unsolved one at the start of the episode. Regards - JMB

    Great episode as always, guys. One thing, though: why don't you state the status of a case --- i.e., whether it is solved or unsolved --- at the beginning of your discussion of the case? It's kind of weird not to. After all, that's an important piece of information, and telling the audience the status of the case would provide a better framework for the discussion, because it doesn't make sense to discuss a solved case in the same way one would discuss an unsolved one. Except that you guys often do, which sometimes confuses me. For me, when discussing a solved case, you are discussing the crime, the setting / backdrop of the crime, the crime scene, the evidence, the investigation, the breaks in the case and the arrest; when discussing an unsolved crime, however, you are discussing 1 - 5 of the above, but you are then discussing the leading theories of the crime, your own theory of the crime, possible additional lines of inquiry, etc. But IMO, you should state --- and the audience should know --- whether the case is a solved or unsolved one at the start of the episode. Regards - JMB

  • Sarah

    Sarah

    I've been waiting for you guys to cover this one! It's one of my big cases. It's just so horrifying. I'm still working my way through the bonus episode, but so far, you're both doing an excellent job with it. Thanks for covering this case!

    I've been waiting for you guys to cover this one! It's one of my big cases. It's just so horrifying. I'm still working my way through the bonus episode, but so far, you're both doing an excellent job with it. Thanks for covering this case!

  • Rachel

    Rachel Amherst, OH

    Well I would like to add that my great grandma was 100% Cherokee on my dads side and my great great grandma was 100% Blackfoot on my moms side. That made my dad 1/8 Native American, the percentage needed to seek compensation from the US government. And I believe with all of my heart that it was Hart. I don’t think that makes me a racist but I guess by the parameters John has laid down on racism here, he must think I’m one too. But anyways, I wanted to point out a couple reasons why I think it’s him beyond the evidence discussed. I didn’t hear this spoken about in the episodes so forgive me if it was. Number 1 is: the women who were raped by Hart described him as making moaning animal noises during the attack. First of all....ew. Second of all, the camp counselors described hearing guttural groaning outside of their tents at around the time the perpetrator would have had to be in the camp. Perhaps he was starting his engine (not to be crude) and that’s what the counselors heard. Also, if he can abduct two conscious and awake women in day, him attacking three sleeping little girls at night is not a stretch. Also, if the dog didn’t bark, perhaps it’s just because Hart was in the camp burglarizing prior to this and made friends with the dog. Anyways, that’s my two cents. Hate this case :(

    Well I would like to add that my great grandma was 100% Cherokee on my dads side and my great great grandma was 100% Blackfoot on my moms side. That made my dad 1/8 Native American, the percentage needed to seek compensation from the US government. And I believe with all of my heart that it was Hart. I don’t think that makes me a racist but I guess by the parameters John has laid down on racism here, he must think I’m one too. But anyways, I wanted to point out a couple reasons why I think it’s him beyond the evidence discussed. I didn’t hear this spoken about in the episodes so forgive me if it was. Number 1 is: the women who were raped by Hart described him as making moaning animal noises during the attack. First of all....ew. Second of all, the camp counselors described hearing guttural groaning outside of their tents at around the time the perpetrator would have had to be in the camp. Perhaps he was starting his engine (not to be crude) and that’s what the counselors heard. Also, if he can abduct two conscious and awake women in day, him attacking three sleeping little girls at night is not a stretch. Also, if the dog didn’t bark, perhaps it’s just because Hart was in the camp burglarizing prior to this and made friends with the dog. Anyways, that’s my two cents. Hate this case frown

  • john

    john France

    All valid points Nic, and yes of course the evidence does point to this monster being responsible but you are missing my point ,the statement the captain gave about being railroaded was a pretty dumb thing to saying I was blown away that you agreed. Its that one statement that I have an issue with, innocent people get railroaded all the time to plead guilty but on this particular occasion you both dropped the ball I believe. With you both the following seems to happen a lot.. white guy=probably innocent and the confession was coerced or evidence was planted/cops had a grudge or else some trauma happened in his childhood so deserves a break. Native guy= did it; So do you stand over the statement the captain made as you have not commented on it, 36.41 of part 3?

    All valid points Nic, and yes of course the evidence does point to this monster being responsible but you are missing my point ,the statement the captain gave about being railroaded was a pretty dumb thing to saying I was blown away that you agreed. Its that one statement that I have an issue with, innocent people get railroaded all the time to plead guilty but on this particular occasion you both dropped the ball I believe. With you both the following seems to happen a lot.. white guy=probably innocent and the confession was coerced or evidence was planted/cops had a grudge or else some trauma happened in his childhood so deserves a break. Native guy= did it;
    So do you stand over the statement the captain made as you have not commented on it, 36.41 of part 3?

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Thanks J.M. Good idea. We do try to leave some mystery to it. As we like the story telling angle of the sovled cases but leaving the mystery along the way. Will it be solved! When we do that we get a great response from the audience almost a sigh of relief... I. So glad they solved this case/ or I’m so glad that guy got caught. We will work it in, your idea. Cheers Nic

    Thanks J.M. Good idea. We do try to leave some mystery to it. As we like the story telling angle of the sovled cases but leaving the mystery along the way.
    Will it be solved! When we do that we get a great response from the audience almost a sigh of relief... I. So glad they solved this case/ or I’m so glad that guy got caught. We will work it in, your idea.
    Cheers Nic

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    John - I appreciate you insight as I can tell by your posts you are quite intelligent and I welcome great, intelligent conversation on here. That is why we set this blog chat up way back when. Look the only people that enjoy being called a racist are racists. So I’m quite offended by your choice of words but I think I understand you feelings. Sad to say scrolling through the possible word choices - this may have been it for best explaining your feelings. I’m not going to go back and listen to that part but I want to be very clear here by what I meant when I agreed with the Captain’s statement and then you can decide if I have to sit at the idiot racists lunch table or not and we shall move on. What I meant by my statement or by agreeing with his words is... in the first case when Hart confessed and received a short sentence for what he most likely intended to be a double murder - how could he have got railroaded in that case when in my opinion he was so clearly guilty and got a hell of a deal. You can only get railroaded if you’re innocent. I’m simply looking at that particular case and with the information available I have the opinion that he is guilty. I don’t care about who he is, background, race, religion or if his daddy didn’t hug him enough. You could replace his name with Suspect A and his image with a shadow figure. I think he is guilty of that first Crime, the double rape. If you are keeping some kind of tally marked scorecard at home and it says I often think people of different races than white are guilty more often than white people well that’s a strange hobby but okay. In all fairness I think it is important to reflect on the sample size for what you have formed this opinion. We have done about 270 shows - so probably about 125 cases, I think as we continue to cover more cases you will see that you formed this opinion too soon. Regardless of everything said,- Merry Christmas to you John. Cheers Nic

    John - I appreciate you insight as I can tell by your posts you are quite intelligent and I welcome great, intelligent conversation on here. That is why we set this blog chat up way back when. Look the only people that enjoy being called a racist are racists. So I’m quite offended by your choice of words but I think I understand you feelings. Sad to say scrolling through the possible word choices - this may have been it for best explaining your feelings. I’m not going to go back and listen to that part but I want to be very clear here by what I meant when I agreed with the Captain’s statement and then you can decide if I have to sit at the idiot racists lunch table or not and we shall move on. What I meant by my statement or by agreeing with his words is... in the first case when Hart confessed and received a short sentence for what he most likely intended to be a double murder - how could he have got railroaded in that case when in my opinion he was so clearly guilty and got a hell of a deal. You can only get railroaded if you’re innocent. I’m simply looking at that particular case and with the information available I have the opinion that he is guilty. I don’t care about who he is, background, race, religion or if his daddy didn’t hug him enough. You could replace his name with Suspect A and his image with a shadow figure. I think he is guilty of that first Crime, the double rape. If you are keeping some kind of tally marked scorecard at home and it says I often think people of different races than white are guilty more often than white people well that’s a strange hobby but okay. In all fairness I think it is important to reflect on the sample size for what you have formed this opinion. We have done about 270 shows - so probably about 125 cases, I think as we continue to cover more cases you will see that you formed this opinion too soon. Regardless of everything said,- Merry Christmas to you John.
    Cheers Nic

  • Amanda

    Amanda Maryland

    Wow! I used to be a Girl Scout back in the 90s. It's so weird to imagine that those little girls were just doing the same thing I did and met with such a horrible fate. I can't imagine the guilt felt by the counselors for not investigating things more during the night, or the parents who sent their children to the camp. I do think the jury made the right decision. Unfortunately, not having DNA testing and other more recent technology available meant that they didn't have much physical proof. And once the defense says "The cops planted the evidence," you have to at least consider it. It sounds to me like he did it. But there's a difference between "I think he did it" and "Should we legally declare him guilty?" I'm wondering- In your research, did you find anything saying the Indians in Oklahoma had a lot of issues with cops back then? Were they common targets of racial profiling? While we know, even recently (sadly) that officers can be guilty of racial profiling and unethical work, that doesn't mean that minorities are NEVER guilty of committing crimes either. Each case needs to be taken for what it is. And it bothers me that the whole Indian community just assumed Hart was innocent. On a completely different note, I was laughing in my car during the Episode 3 intro, about Who-Hash and hiding it in your Who-Ha.

    Wow! I used to be a Girl Scout back in the 90s. It's so weird to imagine that those little girls were just doing the same thing I did and met with such a horrible fate. I can't imagine the guilt felt by the counselors for not investigating things more during the night, or the parents who sent their children to the camp. I do think the jury made the right decision. Unfortunately, not having DNA testing and other more recent technology available meant that they didn't have much physical proof. And once the defense says "The cops planted the evidence," you have to at least consider it. It sounds to me like he did it. But there's a difference between "I think he did it" and "Should we legally declare him guilty?"

    I'm wondering- In your research, did you find anything saying the Indians in Oklahoma had a lot of issues with cops back then? Were they common targets of racial profiling? While we know, even recently (sadly) that officers can be guilty of racial profiling and unethical work, that doesn't mean that minorities are NEVER guilty of committing crimes either. Each case needs to be taken for what it is. And it bothers me that the whole Indian community just assumed Hart was innocent.

    On a completely different note, I was laughing in my car during the Episode 3 intro, about Who-Hash and hiding it in your Who-Ha.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Amanda - If I we’re a bettin’ man, I’d wager that there was some discrimination against native Americans in that area by law enforcement and others during that time. But I think more than that there were things going on in this country during the 60’s & 70’s that would have caused good, smart people to defend and support Hart. This case is very heartbreaking. Nic

    Amanda - If I we’re a bettin’ man, I’d wager that there was some discrimination against native Americans in that area by law enforcement and others during that time. But I think more than that there were things going on in this country during the 60’s & 70’s that would have caused good, smart people to defend and support Hart.
    This case is very heartbreaking.
    Nic

  • Deb

    Deb NH

    Oh boy, this is a tough one. Keeping the girls quiet - the element of surprise & fear. That would do it. Size 7 shoe still not explained unfortunately. I can see a community rallying around a person unjustly targeted, but when he admits his guilt & escapes his punishment, I would think it would be difficult to support him. Now in terms of DNA; his cousin has similar deviant behavior, would his dna be similar? Did they check? Did his cousin set him up? Easy scapegoat given his history? Oh and btw, you can get DNA from feces. I can't remember which one of you guys were questioning it, but yes, blood, sweat, and feces. I'm not sure if you could in the 70's. Thanks guys for the show.

    Oh boy, this is a tough one. Keeping the girls quiet - the element of surprise & fear. That would do it.
    Size 7 shoe still not explained unfortunately. I can see a community rallying around a person unjustly targeted, but when he admits his guilt & escapes his punishment, I would think it would be difficult to support him. Now in terms of DNA; his cousin has similar deviant behavior, would his dna be similar? Did they check? Did his cousin set him up? Easy scapegoat given his history?
    Oh and btw, you can get DNA from feces. I can't remember which one of you guys were questioning it, but yes, blood, sweat, and feces. I'm not sure if you could in the 70's.
    Thanks guys for the show.

  • KAREN

    KAREN Virginia

    Congrats on being in top 20 of vultures list of best true crime podcasts. Thanks for your comic relief CPT and I think nick should be a Major not Colonel. Another gut wrenching crime covered with sensitivity. Love ya

    Congrats on being in top 20 of vultures list of best true crime podcasts. Thanks for your comic relief CPT and I think nick should be a Major not Colonel. Another gut wrenching crime covered with sensitivity. Love ya

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Hi Deb - I wasn't questioning the fact that dna is in feces - I was questioning why we were discussing this in a 1977 investigation. To be polite I didn't feel like mentioning that on the show. Regarding the cousin this is interesting... but a key component of the dna they had or have - the sperm was deformed - likely due to Hart's vasectomy so his cousin would have had to have deformed sperm as well. Someone else said something very smart on here... Hart likely visited the camp several times before the murders. We know there were previous thefts and one of Hart's buddies said they stole things from the camp on more than one occasion. The smart person on here said he very likely could have made friends with the camp dog during those previous visits. Thanks all! Nic

    Hi Deb - I wasn't questioning the fact that dna is in feces - I was questioning why we were discussing this in a 1977 investigation. To be polite I didn't feel like mentioning that on the show.
    Regarding the cousin this is interesting... but a key component of the dna they had or have - the sperm was deformed - likely due to Hart's vasectomy so his cousin would have had to have deformed sperm as well.
    Someone else said something very smart on here... Hart likely visited the camp several times before the murders. We know there were previous thefts and one of Hart's buddies said they stole things from the camp on more than one occasion. The smart person on here said he very likely could have made friends with the camp dog during those previous visits.
    Thanks all!
    Nic

  • Matt

    Matt Virginia

    To address the question of police harassment of Native Americans during this time period, Nic mentioned the AIM. I'd take a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Movement. The first paragraph specifically mentions police harassment. For a non-Wikipedia resource, check out this link: http://libguides.mnhs.org/aim

    To address the question of police harassment of Native Americans during this time period, Nic mentioned the AIM. I'd take a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Movement. The first paragraph specifically mentions police harassment.

    For a non-Wikipedia resource, check out this link: http://libguides.mnhs.org/aim

  • mG

    mG tX

    No need for a third episode, Hart was guilty. Funny how the prosecution cannot bring up a previous rape conviction that greatly resembles this crime because it is prejudicial. However, the defense is allowed to sneak in that Hart is going to prison for the rest of his life regardless. That was the out the jury needed. I think many members of the jury were scared of repercussions if they found Hart guilty. Am curios, Nick, do you know what the composition of the jury was?

    No need for a third episode, Hart was guilty. Funny how the prosecution cannot bring up a previous rape conviction that greatly resembles this crime because it is prejudicial. However, the defense is allowed to sneak in that Hart is going to prison for the rest of his life regardless. That was the out the jury needed. I think many members of the jury were scared of repercussions if they found Hart guilty. Am curios, Nick, do you know what the composition of the jury was?

  • Captain Tina

    Captain Tina Ottawa ON

    Great series, gents, but one piece of feedback. " there was confusion as to whether they'd been raped or JUST sexually assaulted...". There is no "just" in sexual assault. I know you mean well, but language is important to victims and survivors. All the best.

    Great series, gents, but one piece of feedback. " there was confusion as to whether they'd been raped or JUST sexually assaulted...". There is no "just" in sexual assault. I know you mean well, but language is important to victims and survivors.
    All the best.

  • Mellow

    Mellow Not France

    “I’m just gonna wake up in the middle of the night and start crying... it’s not a good look for me.” Lol captain if u were a flower u would be a pansie!

    “I’m just gonna wake up in the middle of the night and start crying... it’s not a good look for me.” Lol captain if u were a flower u would be a pansie!

  • POA

    POA MD

    He must have shape shifted into diarrhea! Haha!

    He must have shape shifted into diarrhea! Haha!

  • Kelly

    Kelly Los Angeles, CA

    It was so obviously Hart, I do not think there is a question. And I am one to really question law enforcement and the prosecution. It is a shame so many people hid him from the police when he escaped as had they not done that, those girls would still be alive. Shame on them. Great episodes though, I liked the deep dive. I do want to state though that innocent people plead guilty all the time to avoid higher penalties so a guilty plea does not always mean the person actually did the crime.

    It was so obviously Hart, I do not think there is a question. And I am one to really question law enforcement and the prosecution. It is a shame so many people hid him from the police when he escaped as had they not done that, those girls would still be alive. Shame on them. Great episodes though, I liked the deep dive. I do want to state though that innocent people plead guilty all the time to avoid higher penalties so a guilty plea does not always mean the person actually did the crime.

  • Bethany

    Bethany Oklahoma

    Hi Nic and Captain, You guys did a really great job explaining this case. As a Girl Scout in Oklahoma in the mid to late 90’s this case was always on our minds when we went camping. By that time, we had two adult women sleep in each cabin with us, and we were always required to use the buddy system, even just to go to the bathroom. It blows my mind that 8, 9, and 10 year olds would be left by themselves in a tent in the woods. There are coyotes, black bears, rattlesnakes, mountain lions, bobcats, and feral hogs. We don’t really have nice clean woods, either. We have thickets and it would take someone who knows them to get through them. That being said, I believe Hart did it. Maybe not alone, but I believe it was him. The only thing I can think of why a jury wouldn’t convict him is if they didn’t understand the significance of the evidence at the time. That being said, I did find a couple of misconceptions in these episodes about the Cherokee Nation and its members. I do not blame you, because I’ve seen these things elsewhere. 1. Some people are offended by the use of the term “Indian” and think that it’s racist. This depends on who you ask. I hear white people from outside of the state refer to us as Native Americans, and get really offended when we refer to ourselves as “Indians”. I have also heard Sioux, Lakota, etc. get really offended by “Indian”. Based on the fact that this case is in Oklahoma, I don’t think Cherokee people would have a problem with it. 2. The Cherokee didn’t have reservations at the time of the crime. The reservation was dissolved and allotments were given to Cherokee individuals before statehood. This crime took place in the Cherokee Nation. 3. Any chance this guy was Keetoowah Cherokee rather than Cherokee? Odd coincidence: https://ktul.com/news/local/thieves-steal-thousands-of-dollars-worth-of-items-from-a-girl-scouts-camp

    Hi Nic and Captain,

    You guys did a really great job explaining this case. As a Girl Scout in Oklahoma in the mid to late 90’s this case was always on our minds when we went camping. By that time, we had two adult women sleep in each cabin with us, and we were always required to use the buddy system, even just to go to the bathroom. It blows my mind that 8, 9, and 10 year olds would be left by themselves in a tent in the woods. There are coyotes, black bears, rattlesnakes, mountain lions, bobcats, and feral hogs. We don’t really have nice clean woods, either. We have thickets and it would take someone who knows them to get through them.

    That being said, I believe Hart did it. Maybe not alone, but I believe it was him. The only thing I can think of why a jury wouldn’t convict him is if they didn’t understand the significance of the evidence at the time.

    That being said, I did find a couple of misconceptions in these episodes about the Cherokee Nation and its members. I do not blame you, because I’ve seen these things elsewhere.

    1. Some people are offended by the use of the term “Indian” and think that it’s racist. This depends on who you ask. I hear white people from outside of the state refer to us as Native Americans, and get really offended when we refer to ourselves as “Indians”. I have also heard Sioux, Lakota, etc. get really offended by “Indian”. Based on the fact that this case is in Oklahoma, I don’t think Cherokee people would have a problem with it.

    2. The Cherokee didn’t have reservations at the time of the crime. The reservation was dissolved and allotments were given to Cherokee individuals before statehood. This crime took place in the Cherokee Nation.

    3. Any chance this guy was Keetoowah Cherokee rather than Cherokee?

    Odd coincidence:
    https://ktul.com/news/local/thieves-steal-thousands-of-dollars-worth-of-items-from-a-girl-scouts-camp

  • Joy Baker

    Joy Baker Greenfield, MA

    Reminder: Polygraphs are prone to error over 70% of the time. They can be easily fooled. They are not valid in a court of law. Knowing all this, WTF do people still believe they're worth anything? Just because people pass a polygraph test, it doesn't mean they're not guilty. Alternately, innocent people who are very nervous can give a false reading. Please stop giving validity to a flawed and unscientific truth finder.

    Reminder: Polygraphs are prone to error over 70% of the time. They can be easily fooled. They are not valid in a court of law.

    Knowing all this, WTF do people still believe they're worth anything?

    Just because people pass a polygraph test, it doesn't mean they're not guilty. Alternately, innocent people who are very nervous can give a false reading.

    Please stop giving validity to a flawed and unscientific truth finder.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Joy - we are not giving validity to polygraph tests or results. If you would have listened we clearly said in at least one instance- we would like to know if there was more to clearing a suspect than just the polygraph results because we hoped there was more to their investigation. Meaning we don’t trust polygragh tests. We are reporting on the course and actions of investigations we would be doing a disservice to the audience if we did not include that info. Cheers Nic

    Joy - we are not giving validity to polygraph tests or results. If you would have listened we clearly said in at least one instance- we would like to know if there was more to clearing a suspect than just the polygraph results because we hoped there was more to their investigation. Meaning we don’t trust polygragh tests. We are reporting on the course and actions of investigations we would be doing a disservice to the audience if we did not include that info.
    Cheers Nic

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    At mG I believe we reported the make up of the jury.... No native Americans were on the jury. Other than that I don’t know the race or other backgrounds. I believe it was a gender split 6 women and 6 men. Cheers Nic

    At mG
    I believe we reported the make up of the jury....
    No native Americans were on the jury. Other than that I don’t know the race or other backgrounds. I believe it was a gender split 6 women and 6 men.
    Cheers Nic

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    @ Captain Tina - I get what you’re saying and those were my words so it’s good that I’m the one responding. You are totally right so I apologize and will doing better. I said it in that manner because of the details that I’m aware of in this case/investigation that I held back during the episodes. There was some pretty graphic theories do to evidence at the Crime scene and out of respect to the victim’s I determined it was unnecessary to discuss such details. Now without getting too far into it the word JUST used (poor choice) but because of evidence. Generally when discussing those two crimes - different evidence is often left at the scene when comparing the two. I should have used intelligent words instead of investigator words. Thanks for the feedback... Nic

    @ Captain Tina - I get what you’re saying and those were my words so it’s good that I’m the one responding. You are totally right so I apologize and will doing better. I said it in that manner because of the details that I’m aware of in this case/investigation that I held back during the episodes. There was some pretty graphic theories do to evidence at the Crime scene and out of respect to the victim’s I determined it was unnecessary to discuss such details. Now without getting too far into it the word JUST used (poor choice) but because of evidence. Generally when discussing those two crimes - different evidence is often left at the scene when comparing the two. I should have used intelligent words instead of investigator words.
    Thanks for the feedback... Nic

  • Jerome

    Jerome Delaware

    You guys mentioned that the neighbor Jack arrived with his adult son saying that they heard about the crimes on the news. I know that y'all mentioned that Jack was quickly considered a suspect and eventually cleared but, was his son ever considered. He could have been trying to cover up for his son just as easily as they believed that he was trying to cover up for himself. (I apologize if this question was asked by someone else or if it is covered in a later episode as I am just finishing the first one).

    You guys mentioned that the neighbor Jack arrived with his adult son saying that they heard about the crimes on the news. I know that y'all mentioned that Jack was quickly considered a suspect and eventually cleared but, was his son ever considered. He could have been trying to cover up for his son just as easily as they believed that he was trying to cover up for himself. (I apologize if this question was asked by someone else or if it is covered in a later episode as I am just finishing the first one).

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    That’s a good question Jerome... in my research I never found mention of Jack’s sons name. I don’t know if he was ever looked at as a suspect but I’m thinking whatever solid alibi Jack (he was out of town at his other home) his son may have shared that same alibi. This may sounds strange but I have actually found this in several cases... often when someone is referred to as adult son or adult daughter and the name is left out of news publications many times I find out later the adult child has a handicap - my guess here - it’s likely one or both explanations

    That’s a good question Jerome... in my research I never found mention of Jack’s sons name. I don’t know if he was ever looked at as a suspect but I’m thinking whatever solid alibi Jack (he was out of town at his other home) his son may have shared that same alibi. This may sounds strange but I have actually found this in several cases... often when someone is referred to as adult son or adult daughter and the name is left out of news publications many times I find out later the adult child has a handicap - my guess here - it’s likely one or both explanations

  • Therese

    Therese Australia

    It was the 1970s, so I guess things very different then. but I can't get past that such young kids were sent to a 2 week camp. that the camp adults were so young. And that these adults left such young children to be in a tent a long way from them and that the whole campsite was dark!! Just astounding. Fwiw. I''m these little girls age. I went to a camp early 1978. We only went for 4 days. And the adults slept in a tent right beside those of us who were young.

    It was the 1970s, so I guess things very different then. but I can't get past that such young kids were sent to a 2 week camp. that the camp adults were so young. And that these adults left such young children to be in a tent a long way from them and that the whole campsite was dark!! Just astounding. Fwiw. I''m these little girls age. I went to a camp early 1978. We only went for 4 days. And the adults slept in a tent right beside those of us who were young.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Therese - I'm with you too young and too many nights. However that was the norm here in the states back then. I did the summer camp thing when I was very young but that was simply a day camp for two weeks - normal school time hours. We didn't go off to camp until we where 10/11. Typically 3 or 4 nights. I think it was ten boys to a cabin plus two adults. Very sad case but even though we don't agree with young girls going off to a two week camp another sad part is that should be a safe option for all should they choose it. imagine how many freedoms and unique experiences have been taken away from all of us of the course of history by some evil man. Its one thing to learn from our mistakes its another to be trained by fear. We got to unite and fight back - each one of these crimes affects us all in some way. - Nic

    Therese - I'm with you too young and too many nights. However that was the norm here in the states back then. I did the summer camp thing when I was very young but that was simply a day camp for two weeks - normal school time hours. We didn't go off to camp until we where 10/11. Typically 3 or 4 nights. I think it was ten boys to a cabin plus two adults.
    Very sad case but even though we don't agree with young girls going off to a two week camp another sad part is that should be a safe option for all should they choose it. imagine how many freedoms and unique experiences have been taken away from all of us of the course of history by some evil man. Its one thing to learn from our mistakes its another to be trained by fear. We got to unite and fight back - each one of these crimes affects us all in some way.
    - Nic

  • Danielle

    Danielle Parts Unknown

    Would love to hear a case about Andrew Cunanan. Keep up the awesome and Happy New Year!

    Would love to hear a case about Andrew Cunanan. Keep up the awesome and Happy New Year!

  • Mike

    Mike Murica

    Other than Someone Cry for the Children, will you please share your sources for this series? Thx. BTW, I would ignore John. If he isn't a troll, then he is an asshole.

    Other than Someone Cry for the Children, will you please share your sources for this series? Thx.

    BTW, I would ignore John. If he isn't a troll, then he is an asshole.

  • Cyndi

    Cyndi Tennessee

    I really hope Patrik finds that volume button.

    I really hope Patrik finds that volume button.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Hi Mike - I cant speak for the both of us but my sources were... - Someone cry for the children - there’s a book called unsolved child murders - they have a chapter - I mentioned the AY magazine article - I believe it’s an Arkansas publication And girlscoutmurders.com Their were some others used for cross checking but the above were my prime sources. Happy hunting - Nic

    Hi Mike - I cant speak for the both of us but my sources were...
    - Someone cry for the children
    - there’s a book called unsolved child murders - they have a chapter
    - I mentioned the AY magazine article - I believe it’s an Arkansas publication
    And girlscoutmurders.com
    Their were some others used for cross checking but the above were my prime sources. Happy hunting - Nic

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