Photo 509 /// 256 /// 257

96 comments

  • Elizabeth

    Elizabeth Victoria, Australia

    My favourite mystery! Wooo

    My favourite mystery! Wooo

  • Yelena

    Yelena Portland

    Hey guys, I think you’re great and I’ma get right to it; I feel like you guys are giving the case a states perspective. What about the native folks that live in the area? where there was “a ruged hiking trail”..where the girls went could have severaly offended locals. I feel like this last episode spoke of indigenous people as spare avatar natives or something. I’ve lived in Hawaii for a few years and I’ve gone to locol places where I instantly t been taught my place. And tell you I think these girls met some jungle locals and it didn’t jive with them that they were off the trail/were in a place they shouldn’t have been.

    Hey guys,
    I think you’re great and I’ma get right to it; I feel like you guys are giving the case a states perspective. What about the native folks that live in the area? where there was “a ruged hiking trail”..where the girls went could have severaly offended locals. I feel like this last episode spoke of indigenous people as spare avatar natives or something. I’ve lived in Hawaii for a few years and I’ve gone to locol places where I instantly t been taught my place. And tell you I think these girls met some jungle locals and it didn’t jive with them that they were off the trail/were in a place they shouldn’t have been.

  • Jason

    Jason USA

    The backpack of belongings... I'm thinking someone, or some persons, finished these girls off - then filled the backpack with "trophies" of the two girls and took it with them home; hence, why the backpack was found so far away. Remember, the bones were abnormally "whitened", probably by lime, which indicates murder. Maybe the lady who "found" the backpack, knows the person in her village who had it, and turned it in to authorities in order to protect the person who had the backpack - a relative of hers she was trying to protect? Knowing that if the authorities found in, they would find the killer.

    The backpack of belongings... I'm thinking someone, or some persons, finished these girls off - then filled the backpack with "trophies" of the two girls and took it with them home; hence, why the backpack was found so far away. Remember, the bones were abnormally "whitened", probably by lime, which indicates murder. Maybe the lady who "found" the backpack, knows the person in her village who had it, and turned it in to authorities in order to protect the person who had the backpack - a relative of hers she was trying to protect? Knowing that if the authorities found in, they would find the killer.

  • Josh

    Josh Minnesota

    Not clear to me how people though thermal imaging two weeks on was going to help, or even why there would be access to such. Totally random thought, but since this is supposed to be a trail up to the continental divide and "mirror" is in the name. Is there perhaps the assumption you could see both the Atlantic and Pacific from the top? I realize it is pretty far inland, looks a good 15 miles from Atlantic and 30 from Pacific, did they perhaps continue on in the hopes of finding a view of the ocean(s)? Intriguing case.

    Not clear to me how people though thermal imaging two weeks on was going to help, or even why there would be access to such.

    Totally random thought, but since this is supposed to be a trail up to the continental divide and "mirror" is in the name. Is there perhaps the assumption you could see both the Atlantic and Pacific from the top? I realize it is pretty far inland, looks a good 15 miles from Atlantic and 30 from Pacific, did they perhaps continue on in the hopes of finding a view of the ocean(s)?

    Intriguing case.

  • Tom

    Tom Tampa

    Hey Gang, On this camera, do we know what happens if the most recent photo is deleted and a new one taken? If 509 was a bad selfie, as speculated, it likely would have been immediately canned. Had that been the case, if this camera is designed to assign photo numbers as the first available (lowest number), we wouldn’t have a missing photo. The first night pic would have been 509, not 510.

    Hey Gang,

    On this camera, do we know what happens if the most recent photo is deleted and a new one taken? If 509 was a bad selfie, as speculated, it likely would have been immediately canned. Had that been the case, if this camera is designed to assign photo numbers as the first available (lowest number), we wouldn’t have a missing photo. The first night pic would have been 509, not 510.

  • Bridgett Jochum

    Bridgett Jochum DC Metro area

    This goes out to Nic and definitely the captain. Have you guys presented the case of Sandra Melgar? I am extremely obsessed with her conviction. I would love to hear your spiel regarding her life, her conviction, and where she is in her appeals today. Don’t litter, Bridgett

    This goes out to Nic and definitely the captain. Have you guys presented the case of Sandra Melgar? I am extremely obsessed with her conviction. I would love to hear your spiel regarding her life, her conviction, and where she is in her appeals today.
    Don’t litter,
    Bridgett

  • Kayla

    Kayla Canada

    You're definitely right in that if a photo has been deleted directly on the camera, it CAN be retrieved. I've also been able to retrieve photos I've deleted from the camera when it was connected to MY computer, but it would make sense to me that if a photo was deleted from the camera by MY computer, that YOU would not be able to retrieve it from the camera or from your computer. The super weird thing to me would definitely be: why would the perpetrator of a crime delete that photo and then return the camera to the bag, as opposed to just then destroying and disposing of the memory card and camera elsewhere? The missing camera could easily be explained away as having been lost in the jungle somewhere.

    You're definitely right in that if a photo has been deleted directly on the camera, it CAN be retrieved. I've also been able to retrieve photos I've deleted from the camera when it was connected to MY computer, but it would make sense to me that if a photo was deleted from the camera by MY computer, that YOU would not be able to retrieve it from the camera or from your computer.
    The super weird thing to me would definitely be: why would the perpetrator of a crime delete that photo and then return the camera to the bag, as opposed to just then destroying and disposing of the memory card and camera elsewhere? The missing camera could easily be explained away as having been lost in the jungle somewhere.

  • Charlene

    Charlene Ontario, Canada

    Regarding photo 509... is photo 509 the last or in the middle? was it taken before the weird ones or after? these questions need to be answered i think in order to fully speculate on this photo.

    Regarding photo 509...
    is photo 509 the last or in the middle?
    was it taken before the weird ones or after?
    these questions need to be answered i think in order to fully speculate on this photo.

  • Gibal

    Gibal Fleetwood

    Imagine computer storage as empty boxes. When you save something, like a photography, you put it in an empty box and label it "509" or whatever. When your camera or computer then wants to see "509" it looks for the box with that label and opens it. When you want to save "510", the camera finds the next empty box, puts it in and labels it. When you delete something on your computer or camera you aren't actually taking anything out of the " box", you are just getting rid of the label. Once you run out of empty boxes, your computer or camera goes back to unlabeled boxes and takes the old stuff out and replaces it with your new stuff. If the camera had a full memory card, you could easily permanently delete a photo without knowing. Also if you don't know exactly how big the "boxes" are, you might never be able to retrieve a deleted photo, without going too far into the weeds, with a computer there are standard file systems that use standard size "boxes" you could guess. But I'm not sure if a camera's internal memory would stick to any particular standard... I'm presuming the Dutch police would know or get the information from the manufacturer.

    Imagine computer storage as empty boxes. When you save something, like a photography, you put it in an empty box and label it "509" or whatever. When your camera or computer then wants to see "509" it looks for the box with that label and opens it. When you want to save "510", the camera finds the next empty box, puts it in and labels it.

    When you delete something on your computer or camera you aren't actually taking anything out of the " box", you are just getting rid of the label. Once you run out of empty boxes, your computer or camera goes back to unlabeled boxes and takes the old stuff out and replaces it with your new stuff.

    If the camera had a full memory card, you could easily permanently delete a photo without knowing. Also if you don't know exactly how big the "boxes" are, you might never be able to retrieve a deleted photo, without going too far into the weeds, with a computer there are standard file systems that use standard size "boxes" you could guess. But I'm not sure if a camera's internal memory would stick to any particular standard... I'm presuming the Dutch police would know or get the information from the manufacturer.

  • Judy

    Judy Fort McMurray

    I hope there is a part 3 to this one given all that was revealed a year later and questions surrounding the very tour guide to was looking for them the day after they went missing!

    I hope there is a part 3 to this one given all that was revealed a year later and questions surrounding the very tour guide to was looking for them the day after they went missing!

  • Joe

    Joe New Jersey

    I would have done this as 3 episodes. If you read the Daily Beast articles, they present a compelling suspect or two. It's been a while since I read them, as I first found this through a diff podcast a year since (gen why?) But I remember one being the supposed tour guide. I know it's speculation, but that whole aspect of this was totally left out. I think the local police even suspected foul play themselves at one point.

    I would have done this as 3 episodes. If you read the Daily Beast articles, they present a compelling suspect or two. It's been a while since I read them, as I first found this through a diff podcast a year since (gen why?) But I remember one being the supposed tour guide. I know it's speculation, but that whole aspect of this was totally left out. I think the local police even suspected foul play themselves at one point.

  • Adam

    Adam Berlin

    The issue, re: photo 509, is either incompetence on behalf of investigators, camera error (unlikely) or internationally misleading. It is very, very unlikely that someone could completely erase the photo without completely reformatting (and erasing) the memory card. When a card is formatted and data starts to get written on it, it's done so sequentially. As things get deleted the data remains there waiting to be overwritten, however that doesn't happen until all the space on the card (or hard drive) is filled. Only then does it go back to write over "deleted" files. If you ever defragged your computer you might understand better: as files get deleted chunks of unused space appears all over the hard drive. So when you defragged your computer it would run better because the data would be consolidated and so would the unused space, making it easier for the computer to read and write to the hard drive. These days computers handle that task themselves, but things like cameras, etc. still write and store data in the same way they always have. So a camera will continue writing to the space until it reaches the end and then doubles back to begin writing over any unused space (from things that were deleted, for instance.) This is why we (I'm a professional videographer) always reformat cards instead of just deleting files from them. It cuts down on potential writing failures while shooting or recording. However before a card is reformatted you should have no problem getting "deleted" data off of it, unless it gets overwritten by new data. And if it hasn't been overwritten, I think it'd be very hard to remove all traces of the data without reformatting the card (erasing it.) And even then the data can often by recovered, at least partially. Computer forensic experts should have had no problem recovering the file or otherwise discovering whether the card had been tampered, which if it had would obviously indicate something happened.

    The issue, re: photo 509, is either incompetence on behalf of investigators, camera error (unlikely) or internationally misleading.

    It is very, very unlikely that someone could completely erase the photo without completely reformatting (and erasing) the memory card. When a card is formatted and data starts to get written on it, it's done so sequentially. As things get deleted the data remains there waiting to be overwritten, however that doesn't happen until all the space on the card (or hard drive) is filled. Only then does it go back to write over "deleted" files. If you ever defragged your computer you might understand better: as files get deleted chunks of unused space appears all over the hard drive. So when you defragged your computer it would run better because the data would be consolidated and so would the unused space, making it easier for the computer to read and write to the hard drive.

    These days computers handle that task themselves, but things like cameras, etc. still write and store data in the same way they always have. So a camera will continue writing to the space until it reaches the end and then doubles back to begin writing over any unused space (from things that were deleted, for instance.) This is why we (I'm a professional videographer) always reformat cards instead of just deleting files from them. It cuts down on potential writing failures while shooting or recording.

    However before a card is reformatted you should have no problem getting "deleted" data off of it, unless it gets overwritten by new data. And if it hasn't been overwritten, I think it'd be very hard to remove all traces of the data without reformatting the card (erasing it.) And even then the data can often by recovered, at least partially. Computer forensic experts should have had no problem recovering the file or otherwise discovering whether the card had been tampered, which if it had would obviously indicate something happened.

  • Carolyn

    Carolyn Pittsburgh

    Such a weird case! Great job guys! Here's a theory: couldn't the women have been held somewhere and then died trying to find their way back/escape from captors? It might explain why the phones were only checked at certain times? Captors leave them unattended each day at 10:30 and 1:30pm? (I know these aren't the exact times.) Captors probably wouldn't care about leaving them with technology... because who would they call?? So they escape - the phones are dead and the camera still has juice - the women use the camera as they are trying to find their way through the jungle. Crazy theory I know but if the camera time stamps are accurate, it's hard to imagine that they came up with the calories needed to survive until April 8th without some help... OR the photos had the wrong time stamp - they died days earlier and all the weird technology glitches (including #509 being deleted) were due to environmental conditions. Any way it happened it's super sad. Thanks for covering their story!

    Such a weird case! Great job guys! Here's a theory: couldn't the women have been held somewhere and then died trying to find their way back/escape from captors? It might explain why the phones were only checked at certain times? Captors leave them unattended each day at 10:30 and 1:30pm? (I know these aren't the exact times.) Captors probably wouldn't care about leaving them with technology... because who would they call?? So they escape - the phones are dead and the camera still has juice - the women use the camera as they are trying to find their way through the jungle. Crazy theory I know but if the camera time stamps are accurate, it's hard to imagine that they came up with the calories needed to survive until April 8th without some help... OR the photos had the wrong time stamp - they died days earlier and all the weird technology glitches (including #509 being deleted) were due to environmental conditions. Any way it happened it's super sad. Thanks for covering their story!

  • KM

    KM New York

    Hey Guys, great show. I may have missed this, but did you discuss the picture where one of the girls looks to have her hands tied behind her back? Super creepy. I can't get that image out of my mind.

    Hey Guys, great show. I may have missed this, but did you discuss the picture where one of the girls looks to have her hands tied behind her back? Super creepy. I can't get that image out of my mind.

  • Rachel

    Rachel Parts Unknown

    Hi guys...I got a degree in electrical/computer engineering (aka, I studied computer). I can give you some background on deleting and recovering pictures, but it’s not going to answer any questions about the case. I apologize in advance if this explanation doesn’t make sense...I’m gonna avoid getting too technical. Think of SD Card memory as a white board. When you take a picture, it’s like writing something on a white board and then drawing a box around it and writing “SAVE.” In the future, other people won’t use that specific chunk of the white board, but they can use the rest of the white board (if you want to take a new picture, the new picture won’t be saved where the old picture is saved). When you delete a picture, you’re just erasing the word “SAVE,” but you’re not erasing the rest of the information....the information just stays on the board until somebody else needs it (so when you take more pictures, they will eventually get stored in that space, but not necessarily right away). In the context of this case, the missing photo raised red flags for me. Environmental factors (water, weather, etc.) can fuck up memory cards, but in this case, it would be like a tornado hitting a single house....SD card hardware is microscopic, so it would be almost impossible for ONLY photo 509 to be impacted. If it was an environmental thing, it would’ve fucked up the whole card. If the SD card was almost full, it could happen, but it doesn’t sound like the card was full. I’ve got 3 theories: 1) law enforcement didn’t have the budget or technology to recover the picture, but it still exists 2) law enforcement is lying about recovering the photo (not necessarily for nefarious reasons) 3) somebody had the technology to digitally shred the picture using a computer (which raises a lot of questions about the finding of the camera). I hope that made sense. You guys are the best. Keep it up!

    Hi guys...I got a degree in electrical/computer engineering (aka, I studied computer). I can give you some background on deleting and recovering pictures, but it’s not going to answer any questions about the case. I apologize in advance if this explanation doesn’t make sense...I’m gonna avoid getting too technical.

    Think of SD Card memory as a white board. When you take a picture, it’s like writing something on a white board and then drawing a box around it and writing “SAVE.” In the future, other people won’t use that specific chunk of the white board, but they can use the rest of the white board (if you want to take a new picture, the new picture won’t be saved where the old picture is saved). When you delete a picture, you’re just erasing the word “SAVE,” but you’re not erasing the rest of the information....the information just stays on the board until somebody else needs it (so when you take more pictures, they will eventually get stored in that space, but not necessarily right away).

    In the context of this case, the missing photo raised red flags for me. Environmental factors (water, weather, etc.) can fuck up memory cards, but in this case, it would be like a tornado hitting a single house....SD card hardware is microscopic, so it would be almost impossible for ONLY photo 509 to be impacted. If it was an environmental thing, it would’ve fucked up the whole card. If the SD card was almost full, it could happen, but it doesn’t sound like the card was full.

    I’ve got 3 theories:
    1) law enforcement didn’t have the budget or technology to recover the picture, but it still exists
    2) law enforcement is lying about recovering the photo (not necessarily for nefarious reasons)
    3) somebody had the technology to digitally shred the picture using a computer (which raises a lot of questions about the finding of the camera).

    I hope that made sense.

    You guys are the best. Keep it up!

  • Unsolved Mysteries of the World Podcast

    Unsolved Mysteries of the World Podcast Alberta Canada

    What if LE accidentally deleted 509 while looking on a computer? The individual may feel ashamed and not fess up to their blunder? Being that all the other photos were basically nothing, maybe the secret of them accidentally deleting the image doesn't weigh upon them.

    What if LE accidentally deleted 509 while looking on a computer? The individual may feel ashamed and not fess up to their blunder? Being that all the other photos were basically nothing, maybe the secret of them accidentally deleting the image doesn't weigh upon them.

  • Richard

    Richard Netherlands

    Panama needs tourism and two young women murdered would be the last thing they'd want. Always keep that in mind because the Panamanian authorities were central in the entire investigation. I'd like to correct one thing. The trail they were following was a well-established path with no forks or splits for a long way. When they attempted the first emergency calls they couldn't have been lost. They would have easily been able to backtrack. Seriously, one would have to make an effort to get off-track and lost. Pure speculation on my part but I think it's very possible one of them slipped and broke an ankle or leg. Downhill may then have seemed like the best option, the little they moved. I think it's possible they were found after a few days. By the wrong people. Hence neither scenario separately makes sense. If it's a combination of both.

    Panama needs tourism and two young women murdered would be the last thing they'd want. Always keep that in mind because the Panamanian authorities were central in the entire investigation.
    I'd like to correct one thing. The trail they were following was a well-established path with no forks or splits for a long way. When they attempted the first emergency calls they couldn't have been lost. They would have easily been able to backtrack. Seriously, one would have to make an effort to get off-track and lost.
    Pure speculation on my part but I think it's very possible one of them slipped and broke an ankle or leg. Downhill may then have seemed like the best option, the little they moved. I think it's possible they were found after a few days. By the wrong people. Hence neither scenario separately makes sense. If it's a combination of both.

  • Camille

    Camille Battle Ground, WA

    Keep up the missing hiker stories--I LOVE them. As someone who works in the world of outdoor recreation, I absolutely buy that the girls were at least initially very, very lost after choosing to continue hiking down the other side of the mountain--it happens ALL the time. I do question, though, if they eventually met someone in the jungle, and if that person or persons meant them harm and later disposed of the photo 509 and/or the backpack in the Ngobe village. Who knows, maybe they stumbled upon coca/marijuana/etc.? BUT the broken foot and the photo of Kris' bloody hair makes me believe that really the poor things were just exhausted and injured and tired and succumbed to the elements or the river, and the shorts and the emergency marker were just Lisanne's way of marking her friend's body.

    Keep up the missing hiker stories--I LOVE them.

    As someone who works in the world of outdoor recreation, I absolutely buy that the girls were at least initially very, very lost after choosing to continue hiking down the other side of the mountain--it happens ALL the time. I do question, though, if they eventually met someone in the jungle, and if that person or persons meant them harm and later disposed of the photo 509 and/or the backpack in the Ngobe village. Who knows, maybe they stumbled upon coca/marijuana/etc.? BUT the broken foot and the photo of Kris' bloody hair makes me believe that really the poor things were just exhausted and injured and tired and succumbed to the elements or the river, and the shorts and the emergency marker were just Lisanne's way of marking her friend's body.

  • joe

    joe New York

    so we’re just not going to post any of the pictures you talk about for an hour?

    so we’re just not going to post any of the pictures you talk about for an hour?

  • Moose

    Moose Canada

    I wonder if the police could have accidentally deleted photo 509 when they were uploading the pictures from the camera to their computer system.

    I wonder if the police could have accidentally deleted photo 509 when they were uploading the pictures from the camera to their computer system.

  • Jennifer Garrow

    Jennifer Garrow

    I haven’t seen all the photos but here’s my theory... they had been taking photos during the daylight and then it got dark. If my only source of light was the flash from the camera, I would be walking and flashing photos just to see what’s in front of me. That could explain the 90 odd pics. However, I also like the idea that natives found the camera and took a bunch of shots not realizing what it’s significance was. It seems like natives found the bag pack and hung onto it until word of the missing girls got around and they left it to be found or washed away. —- My cameras older and holds 140 photos on its memory card (10 photos with no memory card). If I delete a photo I’m pretty sure it’s gone forever. The card simply can’t hold anymore info. and has no recovery option. The odd thing is the sequential numbering of the photos. Once I delete a photo the next picture becomes that number. The camera doesn’t skip a number. So where are these numbers coming from? Time stamps? Prints? Why didn’t the camera just reorder the numbers if a photo was deleted? Jgarr

    I haven’t seen all the photos but here’s my theory... they had been taking photos during the daylight and then it got dark. If my only source of light was the flash from the camera, I would be walking and flashing photos just to see what’s in front of me. That could explain the 90 odd pics. However, I also like the idea that natives found the camera and took a bunch of shots not realizing what it’s significance was. It seems like natives found the bag pack and hung onto it until word of the missing girls got around and they left it to be found or washed away.
    —-
    My cameras older and holds 140 photos on its memory card (10 photos with no memory card). If I delete a photo I’m pretty sure it’s gone forever. The card simply can’t hold anymore info. and has no recovery option. The odd thing is the sequential numbering of the photos. Once I delete a photo the next picture becomes that number. The camera doesn’t skip a number. So where are these numbers coming from? Time stamps? Prints? Why didn’t the camera just reorder the numbers if a photo was deleted?

    Jgarr

  • Branchewski

    Branchewski Croatia

    I would just want to say that the time the missing photo was taken coincide with what I feel about it. Back when I was doing photography on a Canon camera I got used to, and I think many other Canon camera users can say the same, two button push system to instantly delete the photo while it was still on that second-two seconds preview window right after it was taken. I think the missing photo might have been taken by Lisanne as it was her camera and she might have deleted it automatically,

    I would just want to say that the time the missing photo was taken coincide with what I feel about it. Back when I was doing photography on a Canon camera I got used to, and I think many other Canon camera users can say the same, two button push system to instantly delete the photo while it was still on that second-two seconds preview window right after it was taken. I think the missing photo might have been taken by Lisanne as it was her camera and she might have deleted it automatically,

  • Branchewski

    Branchewski Croatia

    I think the time the missing photo was taken coincide with what I feel about it. Back when I was doing photography on a Canon camera I got used to doing this two button push system to instantly delete the photo while it was still on that second-two seconds preview window right after it was taken. I think the missing photo was taken by Lisanne as it was her camera and the other photos that were taken later during the night were taken by Kris who didn't go through the trouble of deleting the photos. I believe Lisanne was showing Kris how to use the flash as a light source in the night and of course deleted the "test" shot automatically. In the cameras back then the preview window also served as something the camera displayed as it transfers the image from its internal memory to the memory card. If she automatically deleted the photo while still on the preview, chances are the photo never even completely transfered to the memory card thus the LE couldn't retrieve it as it was nonexistent and/or corrupt.

    I think the time the missing photo was taken coincide with what I feel about it. Back when I was doing photography on a Canon camera I got used to doing this two button push system to instantly delete the photo while it was still on that second-two seconds preview window right after it was taken. I think the missing photo was taken by Lisanne as it was her camera and the other photos that were taken later during the night were taken by Kris who didn't go through the trouble of deleting the photos. I believe Lisanne was showing Kris how to use the flash as a light source in the night and of course deleted the "test" shot automatically. In the cameras back then the preview window also served as something the camera displayed as it transfers the image from its internal memory to the memory card. If she automatically deleted the photo while still on the preview, chances are the photo never even completely transfered to the memory card thus the LE couldn't retrieve it as it was nonexistent and/or corrupt.

  • Max

    Max Berlin, Germany

    Computer Nerd here. You dont need a Computer to delete a Picture from a device. it cant be deleted in a better way or another. Its a memorysystem problem. All devices create something like an index file which tells the device where on the memory data is stored. If you delete something only the index entry will be deleted and the storage where the data sits is marked to be empty so new data can be stored there. The data is still there. But then comes the problem with ssd cards used in cameras. ( in general flash memory that is) If any picture was taken after the deletion the camera will likely take the empty spot on the storage create a new index entry an copy over old unused data. With flash memory in this case the data will be lost. ( with physical harddrives its not the same. data can be restored even when copyed over. you might even need multiple copy overs to delete all data for sure but with a flashdrive once is enough.) its really hard to delete only a certrain spot on a memory. close to impossible.

    Computer Nerd here. You dont need a Computer to delete a Picture from a device. it cant be deleted in a better way or another.
    Its a memorysystem problem. All devices create something like an index file which tells the device where on the memory data is stored. If you delete something only the index entry will be deleted and the storage where the data sits is marked to be empty so new data can be stored there. The data is still there. But then comes the problem with ssd cards used in cameras. ( in general flash memory that is) If any picture was taken after the deletion the camera will likely take the empty spot on the storage create a new index entry an copy over old unused data. With flash memory in this case the data will be lost. ( with physical harddrives its not the same. data can be restored even when copyed over. you might even need multiple copy overs to delete all data for sure but with a flashdrive once is enough.) its really hard to delete only a certrain spot on a memory. close to impossible.

  • Tamara

    Tamara Antwerp, Belgium

    The thing about the missing photo and being able to recover it if it were deleted from the camera, well it depends on several things. I remember being on vacation quite a few years ago, must have been a year or 2 even before these events happened, and accidentally deleting all the photo's on my digital camera. With the help of the hotelphotographer we managed to recover all my photo's less then an hour later. Similarly there is special recovery software that can recover data from hard drives that have been formatted several times. I can also speak from experience here as I managed to recover videofiles once from a hard drive that had been formatted several times already before I ran the recoverysoftware over it. As long as the part of the hard drive where the files was stored hasn't been overwritten, the file can be recovered. So I suppose in this case of photo 509 it might depend on how full the flashdrive was and when it was deleted. If it was deleted shortly after being taken and/or before those 90 extra pictures were taken then it is possible that the flashdrive was so full that whatever information was still there, has been completely overwritten by those photo's taken afterwards. I'm not a 100% sure as in my examples, in case of the deleted photo's on my camera, the recovery happened imediatly afterwards and in case of the file recovery on the formatted harddrive, it was an HDD drive and not a flashdrive. Both of these work differently in storing data so the same might also be possible for recovery. However the Captain did ask and this is what I know. BTW sorry if my English is a bit off, I'm actually Flemish Dutch so this case did resonate a bit more personally for me.

    The thing about the missing photo and being able to recover it if it were deleted from the camera, well it depends on several things.
    I remember being on vacation quite a few years ago, must have been a year or 2 even before these events happened, and accidentally deleting all the photo's on my digital camera. With the help of the hotelphotographer we managed to recover all my photo's less then an hour later.
    Similarly there is special recovery software that can recover data from hard drives that have been formatted several times. I can also speak from experience here as I managed to recover videofiles once from a hard drive that had been formatted several times already before I ran the recoverysoftware over it. As long as the part of the hard drive where the files was stored hasn't been overwritten, the file can be recovered.
    So I suppose in this case of photo 509 it might depend on how full the flashdrive was and when it was deleted. If it was deleted shortly after being taken and/or before those 90 extra pictures were taken then it is possible that the flashdrive was so full that whatever information was still there, has been completely overwritten by those photo's taken afterwards.
    I'm not a 100% sure as in my examples, in case of the deleted photo's on my camera, the recovery happened imediatly afterwards and in case of the file recovery on the formatted harddrive, it was an HDD drive and not a flashdrive. Both of these work differently in storing data so the same might also be possible for recovery.
    However the Captain did ask and this is what I know.
    BTW sorry if my English is a bit off, I'm actually Flemish Dutch so this case did resonate a bit more personally for me.

  • Jen

    Jen Pinehurst, NC

    Yelena's got a good point. One thing that occurred to me regarding why the regular times for the 911 calls (like 10:30-11:00am and then 1:30-2:00pm or thereabouts for 3 days in a row) - if they were being held by somebody and could not escape (possibly related to a broken ankle) - maybe this guy would leave them alone at those times every day. It could be an issue of that's when he would go get supplies or something like that, regular. Since it coincides with the midday meal, it could be when he would go get the food (early call), and then when he would take the garbage away (second call).

    Yelena's got a good point. One thing that occurred to me regarding why the regular times for the 911 calls (like 10:30-11:00am and then 1:30-2:00pm or thereabouts for 3 days in a row) - if they were being held by somebody and could not escape (possibly related to a broken ankle) - maybe this guy would leave them alone at those times every day. It could be an issue of that's when he would go get supplies or something like that, regular. Since it coincides with the midday meal, it could be when he would go get the food (early call), and then when he would take the garbage away (second call).

  • Bailey

    Bailey Athens

    What an interesting case! The things I couldn’t shake that suggested possible foul play were the bras in the backpack. I laughed out loud when you guys suggested maybe they took those off because they were hot (in the most loving way, of course). As a woman myself, I feel pretty confident saying That’s NOT something women take off when they’re hot - especially when doing physical activity. Short of being naked, it’s the last thing someone would take off if they were hot. If that were the case, why would there only be the bras in there and not the other articles of clothes they were wearing? The phone being turned on at the same times each day also suggested possible foul play to me in that maybe they were being held by someone who had an obligation during that time each day and it was the only opportunity they’d get to try to call for help? I also wish there was more information on whether they really looked into the guide they were supposed to meet with the next day. Is there verifiable proof they actually scheduled the hike for the following day and not actually the day they went missing? Perhaps they did meet up with the guide or he knew they’d be there. From the way you guys told it, it certainly sounded like he went above and beyond to make noise about them not being there for a planned meet. Sure it’s possible he was just doing the kind thing of raising alarm bells or trying to track them down, but perhaps he was creating an alibi for himself as showing that they never made it that day “as planned” to see him because he knew that he’d be the first suspect? Lots of thoughts here!

    What an interesting case! The things I couldn’t shake that suggested possible foul play were the bras in the backpack. I laughed out loud when you guys suggested maybe they took those off because they were hot (in the most loving way, of course). As a woman myself, I feel pretty confident saying That’s NOT something women take off when they’re hot - especially when doing physical activity. Short of being naked, it’s the last thing someone would take off if they were hot. If that were the case, why would there only be the bras in there and not the other articles of clothes they were wearing? The phone being turned on at the same times each day also suggested possible foul play to me in that maybe they were being held by someone who had an obligation during that time each day and it was the only opportunity they’d get to try to call for help? I also wish there was more information on whether they really looked into the guide they were supposed to meet with the next day. Is there verifiable proof they actually scheduled the hike for the following day and not actually the day they went missing? Perhaps they did meet up with the guide or he knew they’d be there. From the way you guys told it, it certainly sounded like he went above and beyond to make noise about them not being there for a planned meet. Sure it’s possible he was just doing the kind thing of raising alarm bells or trying to track them down, but perhaps he was creating an alibi for himself as showing that they never made it that day “as planned” to see him because he knew that he’d be the first suspect? Lots of thoughts here!

  • Mary

    Mary NH

    Hi guys! I’m a photographer and wanted to answer your question about deleting the photo. If the photo was deleted from the camera it still exists on the memory card and can be retrieved. The only way to permanently delete the image would be to format the card, which can be done using the camera, but it would permanently delete all of the images on the card. I just don’t get why a killer would take a camera all the way back to a computer just to remove one image and then return the camera to the scene. If the supposed killer knew enough about memory cards that he knew he needed a computer to permanently delete one image, then he must have known that he could have just formatted the card and erased everything it one second. It seems like it is far more likely that it was a card error that deleted the image and not a person who did it. Love you guys!! -Mary

    Hi guys! I’m a photographer and wanted to answer your question about deleting the photo. If the photo was deleted from the camera it still exists on the memory card and can be retrieved. The only way to permanently delete the image would be to format the card, which can be done using the camera, but it would permanently delete all of the images on the card. I just don’t get why a killer would take a camera all the way back to a computer just to remove one image and then return the camera to the scene. If the supposed killer knew enough about memory cards that he knew he needed a computer to permanently delete one image, then he must have known that he could have just formatted the card and erased everything it one second. It seems like it is far more likely that it was a card error that deleted the image and not a person who did it.
    Love you guys!!
    -Mary

  • Mary Hebert

    Mary Hebert

    Hi guys, I am a photographer and I wanted to answer your question about the deleted image. If the image was deleted from the camera it would still exist on the memory card. The only way to permanently delete the image would be to format the card, which can be done from a computer or from the camera, but it would delete all of the images on the card. You could probably permanently delete only a single image from a computer, but if you know that then you are probably aware of the fact that you could permanently delete all of the images right from the camera without going through the hassle of taking the card all the way to a computer and then putting it back. The most likely scenario here is that law enforcement has chosen to keep the image private at the family’s request, or that the card malfunctioned in some way and the image was corrupted. I think that this was most likely a tragic accident. Love you guys and your show! -Mary

    Hi guys,
    I am a photographer and I wanted to answer your question about the deleted image. If the image was deleted from the camera it would still exist on the memory card. The only way to permanently delete the image would be to format the card, which can be done from a computer or from the camera, but it would delete all of the images on the card. You could probably permanently delete only a single image from a computer, but if you know that then you are probably aware of the fact that you could permanently delete all of the images right from the camera without going through the hassle of taking the card all the way to a computer and then putting it back. The most likely scenario here is that law enforcement has chosen to keep the image private at the family’s request, or that the card malfunctioned in some way and the image was corrupted. I think that this was most likely a tragic accident.
    Love you guys and your show!
    -Mary

  • Mike

    Mike Des Moines, Iowa

    Cn you make shirts with a cartoon version of Nick and a speech bubble that says “It’s fucking impossible!” Out of every episode you guys have done that is single best thing he’s ever said. Also about the episode I wonder how accurate the time stamp on the camera was because they more than likely purchased it before the trip and set the camera up according to that time zone so maybe that’s why they used the sun to verify the local time in that picture up on the summit. Keep up the great work.

    Cn you make shirts with a cartoon version of Nick and a speech bubble that says “It’s fucking impossible!” Out of every episode you guys have done that is single best thing he’s ever said. Also about the episode I wonder how accurate the time stamp on the camera was because they more than likely purchased it before the trip and set the camera up according to that time zone so maybe that’s why they used the sun to verify the local time in that picture up on the summit. Keep up the great work.

  • Alex

    Alex Poland

    So I fully expect this to be redundant by now, but jumping in before I even finish the last 10 minutes of the podcast: quick layman's terms explanation of How Camera Memory Works (and any electronic device's, really) Forget, for a minute, that a digital camera stores information as 0s and 1s and imagine its memory as a pile of Etch A Sketch toys, or maybe like an old timey slate tile they'd use to write on with in chalk in schools before paper became cheap to produce. One photo is always one tile. Say your camera's memory has fifty tiles and as such can fit fifty photos. At first all tiles are blank and all lie on one pile. The 'free to use for photos' pile. You want to snap a photo. You grab a tile on random from that pile and quickly draw photo #1 in chalk on what we will call tile #1. You put that tile aside. You then draw photo #2 on tile #2 and place it with tile #1. They are now a new, 'currently in use, do not wipe' pile. You continue snapping pics, but pause after, idk, photo #7. You've decided you do not like photo #2 after all, and you only have 50 tiles, might as well free up some space now. So you grab tile #2 from the 'do not wipe' pile and put it back on 'free to use' pile, but /don't actually erase the chalk drawing/ This is what happens when you erase a photo from camera's memory. The data making up the photo is not instantly gone, the device just makes a note to itself that 'this particular tile/fragment of data can now be reused if needed'. If you don't do anything else photo #2 can still be viewed and recovered using special software after connecting to a computer, even though just by flipping through from camera it appears to be gone. Now, what happens when you want to take photo #8... This is where it gets interesting. You grab another tile from the 'free to use' pile. It might be a completely new tile #8 you haven't used before OR it can be the former tile #2. What you do in that case is erase the chalk lines of photo #2 from and draw photo #8 instead. At this point photo #2 has stopped existing and cannot be recovered anymore. That's theory. In practice this does not work quite like this, new photo will not usually immediately replace another for a number of reasons, including photo not being necessarily stored in memory as one chunk of continuous 0s and 1s. It could be in several pieces and some of it may be gone and some still possibly recoverable. Now, I have an engineering background, I'm not a forensic data recovery technician and don't have experience with recovering stuff from physically damaged memory, but some things that come to mind assuming the camera wasn't damaged: - if nothing resembling the missing photo can be recovered from the 'free to use' memory it could mean it was deleted by a user (one of the girls purposefully deleting a bad selfie or someone's finger slipping, the fact that my old digital camera had a 'delete photo' button physically on the device comes to mind) and it has then been overwritten by the device itself in the course of taking further photos. This is somewhat likely if the camera was already quite full, if there were already 500 photos on its memory card and then it proceeded to take 90 more... well, exact type&specs of camera would be helpful to know here. - if nothing resembling the missing photo can be recovered from the 'free to use' memory it could also indeed mean someone took the camera, connected it to a computer, went in with a software made to delete files forever and erased it... IE picking up tile #2 and wiping the drawing before placing it on the 'free to use' pile, which is not what happens by default. In general I would be of the opinion that the missing photo is a red herring though. The girls initially got lost all on their own and eventually died of exposure in the jungle and that whatever local came upon the remains shortly thereafter did not reveal the fact, because they wanted their, valuable in that parts, posessions for themselves. Eventually they got scared of the media attention though and decided to get rid of the evidence. In a darker twist someone might have come across one or both of them still alive and robbed/murdered them.

    So I fully expect this to be redundant by now, but jumping in before I even finish the last 10 minutes of the podcast:

    quick layman's terms explanation of How Camera Memory Works (and any electronic device's, really)

    Forget, for a minute, that a digital camera stores information as 0s and 1s and imagine its memory as a pile of Etch A Sketch toys, or maybe like an old timey slate tile they'd use to write on with in chalk in schools before paper became cheap to produce.
    One photo is always one tile.
    Say your camera's memory has fifty tiles and as such can fit fifty photos. At first all tiles are blank and all lie on one pile. The 'free to use for photos' pile.
    You want to snap a photo. You grab a tile on random from that pile and quickly draw photo #1 in chalk on what we will call tile #1. You put that tile aside. You then draw photo #2 on tile #2 and place it with tile #1. They are now a new, 'currently in use, do not wipe' pile.

    You continue snapping pics, but pause after, idk, photo #7. You've decided you do not like photo #2 after all, and you only have 50 tiles, might as well free up some space now.
    So you grab tile #2 from the 'do not wipe' pile and put it back on 'free to use' pile, but /don't actually erase the chalk drawing/

    This is what happens when you erase a photo from camera's memory. The data making up the photo is not instantly gone, the device just makes a note to itself that 'this particular tile/fragment of data can now be reused if needed'. If you don't do anything else photo #2 can still be viewed and recovered using special software after connecting to a computer, even though just by flipping through from camera it appears to be gone.

    Now, what happens when you want to take photo #8... This is where it gets interesting. You grab another tile from the 'free to use' pile. It might be a completely new tile #8 you haven't used before OR it can be the former tile #2. What you do in that case is erase the chalk lines of photo #2 from and draw photo #8 instead. At this point photo #2 has stopped existing and cannot be recovered anymore.

    That's theory. In practice this does not work quite like this, new photo will not usually immediately replace another for a number of reasons, including photo not being necessarily stored in memory as one chunk of continuous 0s and 1s. It could be in several pieces and some of it may be gone and some still possibly recoverable.
    Now, I have an engineering background, I'm not a forensic data recovery technician and don't have experience with recovering stuff from physically damaged memory, but some things that come to mind assuming the camera wasn't damaged:

    - if nothing resembling the missing photo can be recovered from the 'free to use' memory it could mean it was deleted by a user (one of the girls purposefully deleting a bad selfie or someone's finger slipping, the fact that my old digital camera had a 'delete photo' button physically on the device comes to mind) and it has then been overwritten by the device itself in the course of taking further photos. This is somewhat likely if the camera was already quite full, if there were already 500 photos on its memory card and then it proceeded to take 90 more... well, exact type&specs of camera would be helpful to know here.

    - if nothing resembling the missing photo can be recovered from the 'free to use' memory it could also indeed mean someone took the camera, connected it to a computer, went in with a software made to delete files forever and erased it... IE picking up tile #2 and wiping the drawing before placing it on the 'free to use' pile, which is not what happens by default.

    In general I would be of the opinion that the missing photo is a red herring though. The girls initially got lost all on their own and eventually died of exposure in the jungle and that whatever local came upon the remains shortly thereafter did not reveal the fact, because they wanted their, valuable in that parts, posessions for themselves. Eventually they got scared of the media attention though and decided to get rid of the evidence.
    In a darker twist someone might have come across one or both of them still alive and robbed/murdered them.

  • Ashley

    Ashley MA

    Please don't listen to the miserable people telling u to stop doing missing person cases... first of all they ABSOLUTELY are true crime.. kind of a fact not an opinion.. but the really good ones like maura Murray and this one, are some of the most intriguing true crime cases to me.. so SCREW those ppl lol.. jk (not really jk tho)

    Please don't listen to the miserable people telling u to stop doing missing person cases... first of all they ABSOLUTELY are true crime.. kind of a fact not an opinion.. but the really good ones like maura Murray and this one, are some of the most intriguing true crime cases to me.. so SCREW those ppl lol.. jk (not really jk tho)

  • Kelly

    Kelly Los Angeles, CA

    I think it was foul play. It does not make sense that there was such a stretch re pics being taken. Also, when you mentioned the bras being off and they may have removed them themselves I do not think that is likely. If you are hiking through rugged terrain you need the support unless they were going to use them as a splint or something but they were found in the backpack not on a foot or arm. I do not think they would have gone so deep in the jungle on their own, even if lost. They seemed to have sense enough not to do this but who knows I guess. Those pictures are very weird, maybe the girls were left there after an attack and one was deceased and the other was trying to get her bearings?

    I think it was foul play. It does not make sense that there was such a stretch re pics being taken. Also, when you mentioned the bras being off and they may have removed them themselves I do not think that is likely. If you are hiking through rugged terrain you need the support unless they were going to use them as a splint or something but they were found in the backpack not on a foot or arm. I do not think they would have gone so deep in the jungle on their own, even if lost. They seemed to have sense enough not to do this but who knows I guess. Those pictures are very weird, maybe the girls were left there after an attack and one was deceased and the other was trying to get her bearings?

  • Danielle Humberstone

    Danielle Humberstone Atlanta GA

    Has anyone suggested that the night photos were taken on account of one of the girls falling into the dark? If that was the case, it would make sense that her friend needed the light of the flash to find her. Maybe the girl who was injured was calling out and her friend was using the flash to fine her. Did you ever get an answer to the missing photo question?

    Has anyone suggested that the night photos were taken on account of one of the girls falling into the dark? If that was the case, it would make sense that her friend needed the light of the flash to find her. Maybe the girl who was injured was calling out and her friend was using the flash to fine her.

    Did you ever get an answer to the missing photo question?

  • Cindy

    Cindy

    In reference to photo 509: Why would someone take the camera, use a computer to delete the photo, then return the camera to the backpack? When they could just take the camera and no one would be the wiser? Just a thought.

    In reference to photo 509: Why would someone take the camera, use a computer to delete the photo, then return the camera to the backpack? When they could just take the camera and no one would be the wiser? Just a thought.

  • Amanda

    Amanda Simpsonville SC

    As someone who's taken waaay too many pictures in my time, I feel like it's a likely possibility that whichever girl took the last set of photos turned the camera on and took picture 509 without the flash on. It's very easy to completely forget to turn it on or off before using the camera, which would have resulted in a completely black picture, which she then may have deleted. The phone usage reports, the pictures, the attempted calls for help...none of those things point to foul play at all.

    As someone who's taken waaay too many pictures in my time, I feel like it's a likely possibility that whichever girl took the last set of photos turned the camera on and took picture 509 without the flash on. It's very easy to completely forget to turn it on or off before using the camera, which would have resulted in a completely black picture, which she then may have deleted. The phone usage reports, the pictures, the attempted calls for help...none of those things point to foul play at all.

  • Amanda

    Amanda Maryland

    @Yelena- I'll admit, the thought crossed my mind that the native people know more than they're telling. I wouldn't go so far as to think that they actually harmed the girls. It wouldn't be hard to figure out that the girls were lost tourists. I'm wondering if it's more like the natives found the bag a while ago, but either didn't know the girls were missing or just decided not to turn it in right away. This would explain the good condition of the bag compared to the girls' remains, as well as all the fingerprints. I admit it's odd that the natives had a different story about how the shorts were found. But again, maybe they just didn't want to admit that they found the evidence earlier and hadn't reported it. I personally think it seems most logical that the girls got lost and eventually succumbed to hunger, dehydration, or illness (if not injury). I'd like to know what makes the investigators think that the missing photo was deleted using a computer. If someone went through all the trouble of bringing the camera home to delete the photo, why not just destroy everything in the bag instead of putting it back outside? I think there are a lot of simple explanations for the weird details that have been overly-interpreted into evidence of foul play. One other thing I'd like to know is what the weather/geological conditions were like in the area where the remains were found. Is it possible there was a flash flood that came through and damaged the bodies?

    @Yelena- I'll admit, the thought crossed my mind that the native people know more than they're telling. I wouldn't go so far as to think that they actually harmed the girls. It wouldn't be hard to figure out that the girls were lost tourists. I'm wondering if it's more like the natives found the bag a while ago, but either didn't know the girls were missing or just decided not to turn it in right away. This would explain the good condition of the bag compared to the girls' remains, as well as all the fingerprints. I admit it's odd that the natives had a different story about how the shorts were found. But again, maybe they just didn't want to admit that they found the evidence earlier and hadn't reported it.

    I personally think it seems most logical that the girls got lost and eventually succumbed to hunger, dehydration, or illness (if not injury). I'd like to know what makes the investigators think that the missing photo was deleted using a computer. If someone went through all the trouble of bringing the camera home to delete the photo, why not just destroy everything in the bag instead of putting it back outside? I think there are a lot of simple explanations for the weird details that have been overly-interpreted into evidence of foul play.

    One other thing I'd like to know is what the weather/geological conditions were like in the area where the remains were found. Is it possible there was a flash flood that came through and damaged the bodies?

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    joe • New York Posted a lot of them on instagram. Too many to post here. Sorry

    joe • New York

    Posted a lot of them on instagram. Too many to post here. Sorry

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Joe • New Jersey We did say he needed to be looked into. Maybe would could of dove deeper into that.

    Joe • New Jersey

    We did say he needed to be looked into. Maybe would could of dove deeper into that.

  • John

    John Circleville

    On the erased photo - when an image is erased the space on the card is rearranged in a way to let a knew image (or other data) be written in that space. But if no other data is placed there by the camera, then it can be recovered. I shoot a lot of photos and erase my memory cards each time but have found images that are a couple years old when running a recovery program. The same thing goes with the hard drive in a computer - which is why they suggest physically destroying the HD when throwing out an old computer. To go with the foul play theory - the guilty party could have deleted 509 and then taken all those random photos in an attempt to make sure the image was really destroyed. But if they’re going to go to all that trouble, why not just destroy the card? Started listening after hearing about it from the Skipper. Love the show!

    On the erased photo - when an image is erased the space on the card is rearranged in a way to let a knew image (or other data) be written in that space. But if no other data is placed there by the camera, then it can be recovered. I shoot a lot of photos and erase my memory cards each time but have found images that are a couple years old when running a recovery program. The same thing goes with the hard drive in a computer - which is why they suggest physically destroying the HD when throwing out an old computer.

    To go with the foul play theory - the guilty party could have deleted 509 and then taken all those random photos in an attempt to make sure the image was really destroyed. But if they’re going to go to all that trouble, why not just destroy the card?

    Started listening after hearing about it from the Skipper. Love the show!

  • Chelcee

    Chelcee Pittsburgh

    Hey guys! So my immediate thought was the missing picture was proof of them leaving the jungle.. and perhaps someone brought their stories/stuff back and made it seem like they died out there... taking pictures of random stuff and what not. 🤷🏻‍♀️

    Hey guys! So my immediate thought was the missing picture was proof of them leaving the jungle.. and perhaps someone brought their stories/stuff back and made it seem like they died out there... taking pictures of random stuff and what not. 🤷🏻‍♀️

  • Russ  M

    Russ M

    Can someone post a link to where I can view all of the photos retrieved from the camera? I can only find a few on Google. Thanks.

    Can someone post a link to where I can view all of the photos retrieved from the camera? I can only find a few on Google. Thanks.

  • Rivi

    Rivi California

    I'm of the belief that photo 509 never existed, given the time period this case took place. Now, with icloud backup and digital storage, we all have gotten into the habit of believing that technology is well-made and rarely glitches. However, if I were to make a guess based on the information, I would say that most likely outcome was a technical issue-- that is, the numbering system on the camera messed up (skipping over 509 and labeling photo 509 as 510) or the camera believed a photo was taken when it wasn't (if the shutter was pressed halfway to trigger the flash response but not record any data, for example). Love the podcast, keep up the good work. Cheers!

    I'm of the belief that photo 509 never existed, given the time period this case took place. Now, with icloud backup and digital storage, we all have gotten into the habit of believing that technology is well-made and rarely glitches. However, if I were to make a guess based on the information, I would say that most likely outcome was a technical issue-- that is, the numbering system on the camera messed up (skipping over 509 and labeling photo 509 as 510) or the camera believed a photo was taken when it wasn't (if the shutter was pressed halfway to trigger the flash response but not record any data, for example). Love the podcast, keep up the good work. Cheers!

  • KGA

    KGA SC

    Unlikely they were with a guide...most likely two women that age who like to take photos would have asked the guide to take a photo of them together at some point. There’s not photo of the two of them with someone else holding the camera. Also, maybe the reason the phone password was not entered in the last few times the phone was turned on was because maybe one of them had already died and the other didn’t know the passcode to that phone.

    Unlikely they were with a guide...most likely two women that age who like to take photos would have asked the guide to take a photo of them together at some point. There’s not photo of the two of them with someone else holding the camera. Also, maybe the reason the phone password was not entered in the last few times the phone was turned on was because maybe one of them had already died and the other didn’t know the passcode to that phone.

  • JJ

    JJ Oakland

    I just wanted to point out if you're lost in a jungle, a camera flash could be used to scare away animals when it is dark.

    I just wanted to point out if you're lost in a jungle, a camera flash could be used to scare away animals when it is dark.

  • Annie

    Annie Venice, CA

    Hi, I listened to the podcast and thought the photos from the camera were on this website? If so, can you tell me where I can locate them?

    Hi, I listened to the podcast and thought the photos from the camera were on this website? If so, can you tell me where I can locate them?

  • Jason

    Jason Burbank, CA

    Reposted from FB: When files are “deleted” they are not actually erased. The operating system simply removes part of the file that says it’s an active file and it can now be written over. The way to truly delete a file is to write over it with other data, like all zeros. If you don’t, you can recover it with free programs such as: https://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/PhotoRec This is probably why the investigators said someone must have deleted it from a computer because If you delete a file from your micro sd card on the camera, it doesn’t write over it. I know this because I’ve accidentally erased the wrong photo from the camera and was able to recover it.

    Reposted from FB: When files are “deleted” they are not actually erased. The operating system simply removes part of the file that says it’s an active file and it can now be written over. The way to truly delete a file is to write over it with other data, like all zeros. If you don’t, you can recover it with free programs such as: https://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/PhotoRec This is probably why the investigators said someone must have deleted it from a computer because If you delete a file from your micro sd card on the camera, it doesn’t write over it. I know this because I’ve accidentally erased the wrong photo from the camera and was able to recover it.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    at KGA - they were not with a guide as far as we know. The taxi driver said the two women were alone when dropped off near the trail head. Lots of good chat on here... Cheers Nic

    at KGA - they were not with a guide as far as we know. The taxi driver said the two women were alone when dropped off near the trail head.
    Lots of good chat on here...
    Cheers Nic

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Finding the photos.... a google search should turn up most of them. I can't speak for the Captain but I was unable to find all (approximately 100 or so) photos. I believe I viewed maybe 25-30? Anyone with a GOOD link please post here. Cheers Nic

    Finding the photos....
    a google search should turn up most of them. I can't speak for the Captain but I was unable to find all (approximately 100 or so) photos. I believe I viewed maybe 25-30? Anyone with a GOOD link please post here.
    Cheers Nic

  • Michael J

    Michael J Michigan

    Any thoughts the 90 pictures may have been flashes to alert search parties? Or planes overhead? Just a thought. Good story. Seems like it is mostly accidental stuff and someone grabbed the bag and later realized they did not know what to do with it. But missing 509 is a bit weird. Nice job guys!

    Any thoughts the 90 pictures may have been flashes to alert search parties? Or planes overhead? Just a thought. Good story. Seems like it is mostly accidental stuff and someone grabbed the bag and later realized they did not know what to do with it. But missing 509 is a bit weird. Nice job guys!

  • Monica

    Monica Chicago

    I agree that the tribe should have been looked at more. Maybe the fingerprint are from them. Also if you are lost without food or water for that long, you would be severely dehydrated, you get confused and weak and make poor decisions or decisions that make no sense. When you get dehydrated to that extent, you may even hallucinate . So perhaps the pictures and their actions make no sense because of that

    I agree that the tribe should have been looked at more. Maybe the fingerprint are from them. Also if you are lost without food or water for that long, you would be severely dehydrated, you get confused and weak and make poor decisions or decisions that make no sense. When you get dehydrated to that extent, you may even hallucinate . So perhaps the pictures and their actions make no sense because of that

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Hi Michael - yes that is one of the suspicions we shared on the show. The flashes could have been to take pictures, scare away an animal, alert searchers, light the way in the dark or chronicle events. If it's the latter - after 7 days they likely would be starving, dehydrated and very tired - might have been hallucinating and then the pictures or what they were taking photos of may only have made sense to them in the moment and we are left scratching our heads... Nic

    Hi Michael - yes that is one of the suspicions we shared on the show. The flashes could have been to take pictures, scare away an animal, alert searchers, light the way in the dark or chronicle events. If it's the latter - after 7 days they likely would be starving, dehydrated and very tired - might have been hallucinating and then the pictures or what they were taking photos of may only have made sense to them in the moment and we are left scratching our heads...
    Nic

  • JR

    JR RI

    For the missing photo, the police should have used data recovery to retrieve the photo from off the card, whether ut was deleted from the camera or from a computer. I have done this numerous times with different cameras.

    For the missing photo, the police should have used data recovery to retrieve the photo from off the card, whether ut was deleted from the camera or from a computer. I have done this numerous times with different cameras.

  • Michelle

    Michelle North America

    I think there is a simple explanation for what happened to picture 509, which is that the data got corrupted on the SD card. SD cards aren't the most resilient form of digital storage. I used to take pictures with digital cameras, and occasionally I'd try to look up a picture I'd taken and there would be a message instead saying, "Corrupted file". If the girls were scrolling through the pictures that day and saw that one of the pictures had been corrupted, it makes sense they would delete it. Then, when the investigators tried to recover the data, they wouldn't be able to recover that image because the data was already corrupted. Given that this camera had been through a jungle for weeks before it was found, it's hardly surprising something like this would happen. The notion of foul play seems impossible in light of the numerous phone calls made to emergency services several days after the girls disappeared. The idea of a criminal using their phone to call the police doesn't make any sense at all. It seems pretty clear they just got lost in the jungle and died of exposure. What's extremely tragic and frustrating about this case is that they both had smart phones with GPS capability. If they had taken five seconds to save the location of the trailhead as a waypoint in their phones, they would never have gotten lost. Even if they had saved the location of the view point at the top, they would still have eventually found their way back. Even in the worst case scenario of getting lost, it's extremely unlikely they would have spent a single night in the jungle. This story reminds me of Chris McCandless, who died of exposure in Alaska only a quarter mile from a bridge that could have taken him to safety, which was just barely out of sight of where he sat down and died. Be smart out in the woods, people. They're a dangerous place. This story is just one example of how easy it is for things to go wrong.

    I think there is a simple explanation for what happened to picture 509, which is that the data got corrupted on the SD card. SD cards aren't the most resilient form of digital storage. I used to take pictures with digital cameras, and occasionally I'd try to look up a picture I'd taken and there would be a message instead saying, "Corrupted file". If the girls were scrolling through the pictures that day and saw that one of the pictures had been corrupted, it makes sense they would delete it. Then, when the investigators tried to recover the data, they wouldn't be able to recover that image because the data was already corrupted. Given that this camera had been through a jungle for weeks before it was found, it's hardly surprising something like this would happen.

    The notion of foul play seems impossible in light of the numerous phone calls made to emergency services several days after the girls disappeared. The idea of a criminal using their phone to call the police doesn't make any sense at all.

    It seems pretty clear they just got lost in the jungle and died of exposure. What's extremely tragic and frustrating about this case is that they both had smart phones with GPS capability. If they had taken five seconds to save the location of the trailhead as a waypoint in their phones, they would never have gotten lost. Even if they had saved the location of the view point at the top, they would still have eventually found their way back. Even in the worst case scenario of getting lost, it's extremely unlikely they would have spent a single night in the jungle.

    This story reminds me of Chris McCandless, who died of exposure in Alaska only a quarter mile from a bridge that could have taken him to safety, which was just barely out of sight of where he sat down and died.

    Be smart out in the woods, people. They're a dangerous place. This story is just one example of how easy it is for things to go wrong.

  • James

    James Texas

    Is there any way to know the websites they looked at before going on the hike? If so does that website give an alternate rout to getting back to the trailhead?

    Is there any way to know the websites they looked at before going on the hike? If so does that website give an alternate rout to getting back to the trailhead?

  • Jessie

    Jessie GARDNER ks

    What if the guide that was supposed to lead them on the trail the following day called them, told them to come out that day, and then killed them? Why would they go on a trail the day before they had a guide scheduled? Why did he care so much about them rescheduling/no show to talk to host family?

    What if the guide that was supposed to lead them on the trail the following day called them, told them to come out that day, and then killed them? Why would they go on a trail the day before they had a guide scheduled? Why did he care so much about them rescheduling/no show to talk to host family?

  • Kylie

    Kylie Australia

    Guys I finally got my shout out and you have no idea how thrilled I am! Thank you! Love your work :)

    Guys I finally got my shout out and you have no idea how thrilled I am! Thank you! Love your work smile

  • Lacy

    Lacy Wisconsin

    When you were talking about the missing photo, you kept saying it would have been a lot of effort to take the camera to a computer, delete one photo, and return it close to the "scene". I think you are missing the possibility that there could have been a person whom they came in contact with that could have had a laptop with them. I'd the possibility that they ran into someone who offered them help, the same possibility exists that the person was familiar with the area and not indigenous.

    When you were talking about the missing photo, you kept saying it would have been a lot of effort to take the camera to a computer, delete one photo, and return it close to the "scene". I think you are missing the possibility that there could have been a person whom they came in contact with that could have had a laptop with them. I'd the possibility that they ran into someone who offered them help, the same possibility exists that the person was familiar with the area and not indigenous.

  • B

    B Parts Unknown

    I have to politely disagree with Bailey who stated that girls never take off their bra when hot........that's the first thing I take off and I've probably done it a billion times in my life! It absolutely makes a difference, you should definitely give it a try. The girls may also have gotten soaked, either from rain or the river and wearing a wet bra can be very irritating and after a possible week being lost, they may not have bothered to put them back on or they were planning on using them as trail markers. Lisanne doesn't appear to be super busty so she wouldn't likely need the support of a bra while hiking, as someone mentioned. It also looks like Kris' top could actually be a bathing suit so even if she did take her bra off and felt like she needed the support while hiking (to save her life), she may have been okay without it. And they both look like they have underwire- wearing those 24 hours a day while hiking for who knows how long could be extremely irritating. As for the photos: The picture with Kris with her hands behind her, it just looks like she's goofing around to me. If you look at some of the other photos, she's doing weird little poses in a lot of them. I looked at the "head wound" picture, I don't see any obvious signs of blood. It's really hard to tell the context of that picture but it does appear that either her head is facing the ground or hair was moved out of the way, based on the position of the hair. BUT we do know that the head picture is Kris, we know Kris could have broke her foot while still alive (I don't know if they have evidence of whether the fractures were pre or post-mortem) and we know that someone tried to access Kris' phone and was unable to unlock it- so I think that it's a fair guess that Kris may have passed away first. Perhaps after she passed away, Lisanne freaked out and that's why we get a string of those pictures, whether she's trying to use it as a light, trying to find Kris (as someone else suggested) or maybe she was trying to document where to find Kris' body. I can't imagine having to leave a friend in that situation. As for the timing of the phone calls- I don't think it's likely that they would have their phones if they were being held captive, even if the person was confident there was no cell signal. I totally can relate to the specific times of the calls though. Put yourself in their shoes, it's day 2 or 3 and you haven't been rescued. You know you have to limit phone time to save your battery. It's going to be really hard not to constantly try to make a phone call. So what I would do is make a schedule for myself- I can only make 2 calls a day, and set those times. That way you aren't driving yourself nuts, it's a way to manage the impatience, stress and panic. I read a few things that stated they may have had a (local) dog with them when they set out on the hike? Any verification of this? If they did, it's possible the dog ran off/home and they got lost looking for it? Many people have wondered why they would have continued off the trail, this could be a legitimate reason. I feel like the lady bringing in the backpack all neatly packed is a little suspicious. It reminds me of a mom who finds out her kid stole something and then kindly returns it like nothing happened. Not to say she's covering for a murder, but you don't want to have missing items of two missing girls in your home. As for the "suspicious" guide- I haven't looked too much into it but what if he just feels guilty? Maybe he couldn't guide them that day, set up for the next day and then they go missing. If that were me, I would feel horrible. Also, since he's a guide, he obviously (hopefully) knows the area well and would likely be a great asset in the search.

    I have to politely disagree with Bailey who stated that girls never take off their bra when hot........that's the first thing I take off and I've probably done it a billion times in my life! It absolutely makes a difference, you should definitely give it a try. The girls may also have gotten soaked, either from rain or the river and wearing a wet bra can be very irritating and after a possible week being lost, they may not have bothered to put them back on or they were planning on using them as trail markers. Lisanne doesn't appear to be super busty so she wouldn't likely need the support of a bra while hiking, as someone mentioned. It also looks like Kris' top could actually be a bathing suit so even if she did take her bra off and felt like she needed the support while hiking (to save her life), she may have been okay without it. And they both look like they have underwire- wearing those 24 hours a day while hiking for who knows how long could be extremely irritating.

    As for the photos: The picture with Kris with her hands behind her, it just looks like she's goofing around to me. If you look at some of the other photos, she's doing weird little poses in a lot of them. I looked at the "head wound" picture, I don't see any obvious signs of blood. It's really hard to tell the context of that picture but it does appear that either her head is facing the ground or hair was moved out of the way, based on the position of the hair. BUT we do know that the head picture is Kris, we know Kris could have broke her foot while still alive (I don't know if they have evidence of whether the fractures were pre or post-mortem) and we know that someone tried to access Kris' phone and was unable to unlock it- so I think that it's a fair guess that Kris may have passed away first. Perhaps after she passed away, Lisanne freaked out and that's why we get a string of those pictures, whether she's trying to use it as a light, trying to find Kris (as someone else suggested) or maybe she was trying to document where to find Kris' body. I can't imagine having to leave a friend in that situation.

    As for the timing of the phone calls- I don't think it's likely that they would have their phones if they were being held captive, even if the person was confident there was no cell signal. I totally can relate to the specific times of the calls though. Put yourself in their shoes, it's day 2 or 3 and you haven't been rescued. You know you have to limit phone time to save your battery. It's going to be really hard not to constantly try to make a phone call. So what I would do is make a schedule for myself- I can only make 2 calls a day, and set those times. That way you aren't driving yourself nuts, it's a way to manage the impatience, stress and panic.

    I read a few things that stated they may have had a (local) dog with them when they set out on the hike? Any verification of this? If they did, it's possible the dog ran off/home and they got lost looking for it? Many people have wondered why they would have continued off the trail, this could be a legitimate reason.

    I feel like the lady bringing in the backpack all neatly packed is a little suspicious. It reminds me of a mom who finds out her kid stole something and then kindly returns it like nothing happened. Not to say she's covering for a murder, but you don't want to have missing items of two missing girls in your home.

    As for the "suspicious" guide- I haven't looked too much into it but what if he just feels guilty? Maybe he couldn't guide them that day, set up for the next day and then they go missing. If that were me, I would feel horrible. Also, since he's a guide, he obviously (hopefully) knows the area well and would likely be a great asset in the search.

  • Dave Tew

    Dave Tew UK

    The times of logged access I would think of two possible explanations: A)The phone checking in order to back up data. B)I’d also want to check the times logged to the time in their home country as maybe that will explain more from the times difference.

    The times of logged access I would think of two possible explanations:

    A)The phone checking in order to back up data.

    B)I’d also want to check the times logged to the time in their home country as maybe that will explain more from the times difference.

  • B

    B Parts Unknown

    *RE my previous post- I was wrong, it was Lisanne's foot/boot that was found.

    *RE my previous post- I was wrong, it was Lisanne's foot/boot that was found.

  • mG

    mG tX

    I lived in the Upper Grand Lagoon, near Panama City in 2015 and this was still a much talked about topic years after, probably still is (not there anymore). Never heard a consensus opinion on what happened, several theories. Very sad, the girls wanted to do some good, didn't get a chance to. Hard to accurately describe the Talamanca highlands unless you have been there. It is dense! And it pours every freaking day. You get off the trail out there, especially at night, not good.

    I lived in the Upper Grand Lagoon, near Panama City in 2015 and this was still a much talked about topic years after, probably still is (not there anymore). Never heard a consensus opinion on what happened, several theories. Very sad, the girls wanted to do some good, didn't get a chance to. Hard to accurately describe the Talamanca highlands unless you have been there. It is dense! And it pours every freaking day. You get off the trail out there, especially at night, not good.

  • Becca

    Becca Oklahoma

    Typically images can be retrieved once deleted from the camera! (I have done this before when I accidentally deleted some) Unless the entire card was deleted and you filled it back up with new images.. then you probably won’t be able to recover it. But that doesn’t seem to be the case.

    Typically images can be retrieved once deleted from the camera! (I have done this before when I accidentally deleted some) Unless the entire card was deleted and you filled it back up with new images.. then you probably won’t be able to recover it. But that doesn’t seem to be the case.

  • C Lee

    C Lee Canada

    Having some experience with data recovery I'd like to make a few points regarding photo 509. Firstly at a basic level it doesn't matter if the file is deleted by the Camera or a computer. The management of files at a low level is handled by the memory card itself. Memory cards have what is know as a file allocation table. Forget the jargon it's basically an index system that records where on the memory card your files are, and also where the free space is. When you delete a file, it removes the index entry and marks where the file was as free space. What it does NOT do is erase the actual data itself. This is partly for speed, but also to cut down on wear, memory cards can only be written to so many times before they wear out. I've seen a few comments saying the camera is a basic device and just keeps writing until it reaches the end of the card. Actually what is really happening is the card itself is spreading the wear across the card. Although in general you have a good chance that the image will still be available, the more photos you take after a delete the greater chance that the space where your file was gets overwritten. Since each card handles things differently and we don't know the capacity of the card it's hard to speculate further without having the memory card itself. As others have mentioned many cameras store the photo in their own faster memory for a short time. This is to avoid lag on slower memory cards. They then write to the card in the background while your viewing the shot or lining up the next. During this time some cameras have a delete option. This can delete the photo before it ever reaches the memory card. This could account for the missing 509 photo easily, because the cameras temporary memory is lost as soon as more photos are taken or the power is cut. Going back to the computer, using specialist software or equipment, it would be possible to erase the file. However I feel this is unlikely, returning the camera seems like a lot of risk, some specialist labs could possibly recover the data, why not just destroy it? One option would be to copy the other files excluding 509 onto a fresh card, but this would also leave date stamp evidence. These possibilities seem unlikely. If it was foul play we have to remember that logical thinking might not come into the equation. For example someone might want the camera to be found just to mess with the authorities or just were not in their right mind at the time. I don't think we can reach any conclusions either way.

    Having some experience with data recovery I'd like to make a few points regarding photo 509. Firstly at a basic level it doesn't matter if the file is deleted by the Camera or a computer. The management of files at a low level is handled by the memory card itself. Memory cards have what is know as a file allocation table. Forget the jargon it's basically an index system that records where on the memory card your files are, and also where the free space is. When you delete a file, it removes the index entry and marks where the file was as free space. What it does NOT do is erase the actual data itself. This is partly for speed, but also to cut down on wear, memory cards can only be written to so many times before they wear out. I've seen a few comments saying the camera is a basic device and just keeps writing until it reaches the end of the card. Actually what is really happening is the card itself is spreading the wear across the card. Although in general you have a good chance that the image will still be available, the more photos you take after a delete the greater chance that the space where your file was gets overwritten. Since each card handles things differently and we don't know the capacity of the card it's hard to speculate further without having the memory card itself.
    As others have mentioned many cameras store the photo in their own faster memory for a short time. This is to avoid lag on slower memory cards. They then write to the card in the background while your viewing the shot or lining up the next. During this time some cameras have a delete option. This can delete the photo before it ever reaches the memory card. This could account for the missing 509 photo easily, because the cameras temporary memory is lost as soon as more photos are taken or the power is cut.
    Going back to the computer, using specialist software or equipment, it would be possible to erase the file. However I feel this is unlikely, returning the camera seems like a lot of risk, some specialist labs could possibly recover the data, why not just destroy it?
    One option would be to copy the other files excluding 509 onto a fresh card, but this would also leave date stamp evidence.
    These possibilities seem unlikely. If it was foul play we have to remember that logical thinking might not come into the equation. For example someone might want the camera to be found just to mess with the authorities or just were not in their right mind at the time. I don't think we can reach any conclusions either way.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    This case was such a difficult case to think about all week long as the possibilities of what could have happened to these two young ladies are plentiful. The logical side of me says... This is simply a tragic accident, they got lost or hurt and help never found them. This makes me strongly question the information presented to us via websites using the story as click bait or even sites suggesting that they have put together a very comprehensive and thorough report on this case. I say that because a lot of those same reports tell us the time stamp worked on the camera and the night time photos were taken about 90 photos in all in a 2 hour window some just seconds apart but then they say using the position of the sun we can determine what time the daytime photos were taken on the day of their hike. Why would you need to use the position of the sun if the time stamp worked. And what time zone was the camera set for? It did not have GPS who changes the time on their camera after flying into another country. Some but not me and not most. They came from like 5 or 6 timezones away. I suspect we are getting bad information and do not know the whole story... The victims are from another country and this happened in Panama - let's sell the "dumb" public the story they want. It is far more interesting if the big bad wolf dresses up like grandma and tries to eat little red riding hood than her simply getting lost in the woods. I'm not suggesting we have "fell" for anything, I just think that just like these two poor ladies we don't have the proper guide to have really any idea. Cheers - Nic

    This case was such a difficult case to think about all week long as the possibilities of what could have happened to these two young ladies are plentiful. The logical side of me says... This is simply a tragic accident, they got lost or hurt and help never found them. This makes me strongly question the information presented to us via websites using the story as click bait or even sites suggesting that they have put together a very comprehensive and thorough report on this case. I say that because a lot of those same reports tell us the time stamp worked on the camera and the night time photos were taken about 90 photos in all in a 2 hour window some just seconds apart but then they say using the position of the sun we can determine what time the daytime photos were taken on the day of their hike. Why would you need to use the position of the sun if the time stamp worked. And what time zone was the camera set for? It did not have GPS who changes the time on their camera after flying into another country. Some but not me and not most. They came from like 5 or 6 timezones away. I suspect we are getting bad information and do not know the whole story... The victims are from another country and this happened in Panama - let's sell the "dumb" public the story they want. It is far more interesting if the big bad wolf dresses up like grandma and tries to eat little red riding hood than her simply getting lost in the woods. I'm not suggesting we have "fell" for anything, I just think that just like these two poor ladies we don't have the proper guide to have really any idea.
    Cheers - Nic

  • Neil Bailey

    Neil Bailey Great Britain

    Hi guys Have we looked into what dehydration can do to the body? If they were dehydrated could that explain some of the odd photos? In the jungle with 100% humidity it’s easy to dehydrate especially when your sweating and your low on water or drinking dodgy river water, just a thought ... possibly could be making mistakes as they they may be slipping into delirium Neil

    Hi guys
    Have we looked into what dehydration can do to the body? If they were dehydrated could that explain some of the odd photos? In the jungle with 100% humidity it’s easy to dehydrate especially when your sweating and your low on water or drinking dodgy river water, just a thought ... possibly could be making mistakes as they they may be slipping into delirium
    Neil

  • David Stephen

    David Stephen Auburn, AL

    Hi guys and fellow True Crime Garage Fans. Has anyone considered the possibility that since the bones were found not far from the river that perhaps they were attacked by a crocodile? Although, then you would think one of them would have gotten away unless there were a dual attack.

    Hi guys and fellow True Crime Garage Fans. Has anyone considered the possibility that since the bones were found not far from the river that perhaps they were attacked by a crocodile? Although, then you would think one of them would have gotten away unless there were a dual attack.

  • Maria Jason

    Maria Jason

    Just wanted to thank you guys! All of your hard work is appreciated! Keep doing what you are doing!

    Just wanted to thank you guys! All of your hard work is appreciated! Keep doing what you are doing!

  • Michelle

    Michelle Durham, NC

    Hi team, what a great job you did on this case! Tons of stuff to be unpacked and you thoroughly talked out all the mysteries. Two things from part 1: The multiple pings/scans from the girls' phones at 10ish and 1ish could be apps, system notifications, checks for upgrades, or regular pull notifications scheduled by apps or in phone system settings. In these cases, the phone might "turn on" by itself to send out the ping/scan or a signal without any intervention from the phone user at all. Earlier generations of Android and iOS phones made it a lot harder to know or understand when your phone, or apps you installed, were active in this way; I remember having to endlessly fiddle with my iPhone 4 to kill app settings and prevent unwanted activity and pings so my damned phone would keep its charge more than a few hours. Early Android editions were so bad there was a KillAndroid app you could download to just push when your phone was burning charge. So that could have been happening. On paper there would be no way to tell whether or user or the phone settings were activating the scan. Second thing is about getting to the summit and going on to the "other side" instead of going back down; unless you understand how truly easy it is to get lost, people who are used to tourist hiking trails might not bring a compass or even know how to tell what direction they are going (surprisingly, a lot of people don't even understand that the sun rises in the East. Sad, but true).

    Hi team, what a great job you did on this case! Tons of stuff to be unpacked and you thoroughly talked out all the mysteries.

    Two things from part 1: The multiple pings/scans from the girls' phones at 10ish and 1ish could be apps, system notifications, checks for upgrades, or regular pull notifications scheduled by apps or in phone system settings. In these cases, the phone might "turn on" by itself to send out the ping/scan or a signal without any intervention from the phone user at all. Earlier generations of Android and iOS phones made it a lot harder to know or understand when your phone, or apps you installed, were active in this way; I remember having to endlessly fiddle with my iPhone 4 to kill app settings and prevent unwanted activity and pings so my damned phone would keep its charge more than a few hours. Early Android editions were so bad there was a KillAndroid app you could download to just push when your phone was burning charge. So that could have been happening. On paper there would be no way to tell whether or user or the phone settings were activating the scan.

    Second thing is about getting to the summit and going on to the "other side" instead of going back down; unless you understand how truly easy it is to get lost, people who are used to tourist hiking trails might not bring a compass or even know how to tell what direction they are going (surprisingly, a lot of people don't even understand that the sun rises in the East. Sad, but true).

  • mG

    mG tX

    Nic, I think the obvious explanation of what happened, is jaguars. If the women were in a weakened state, they were prime targets for jags. Would also explain the bone dispersal. I have not listened to the second part yet, you might go into that.

    Nic, I think the obvious explanation of what happened, is jaguars. If the women were in a weakened state, they were prime targets for jags. Would also explain the bone dispersal. I have not listened to the second part yet, you might go into that.

  • Nicole

    Nicole Miami, FL

    I had to pause the podcast to say, as Nic mentioned, how could they rule out foul play as the bones they collected were fragmented. I would like to add: Not only that! But you stated they found 30-something fragments of bones. A human body contains 206 bones so between the two women there would've been...hold on let me take out my trusty calculator...412 bones. Only finding 30-something and the longest bone found was a femur means they are missing about (calculator time again) 85 percent of the bones. How can they conclude based on the 14% of so bones found that it wasn't a murder? Strange.

    I had to pause the podcast to say, as Nic mentioned, how could they rule out foul play as the bones they collected were fragmented. I would like to add: Not only that! But you stated they found 30-something fragments of bones. A human body contains 206 bones so between the two women there would've been...hold on let me take out my trusty calculator...412 bones. Only finding 30-something and the longest bone found was a femur means they are missing about (calculator time again) 85 percent of the bones. How can they conclude based on the 14% of so bones found that it wasn't a murder?

    Strange.

  • Mags

    Mags SLC

    Re: the photos you posted on TCG Instagram, what on earth is going on in the last photo? It looks like thick white ripped up sheet plastic on the ground. Why would this be in the jungle? It is by far the outlier of the night photos you posted. Maybe I’m seeing it wrong, but I see plastic. Any thoughts on why or what it is if it’s not plastic? Anyone?

    Re: the photos you posted on TCG Instagram, what on earth is going on in the last photo? It looks like thick white ripped up sheet plastic on the ground. Why would this be in the jungle? It is by far the outlier of the night photos you posted. Maybe I’m seeing it wrong, but I see plastic. Any thoughts on why or what it is if it’s not plastic? Anyone?

  • Josh

    Josh Minnesota

    I think the missing photo is just a red herring that means nothing. I also think the theorizing about them "calling regularly" while captives is just borderline absurd. I don't are how sure you are abut the lack of reception, you don't leave foreigners with their electronics while holding them captive, especially not for days. The thing I find most odd about this is actually the simple idea of them going to the trailhead they had hired a guide for for the following day. Seems a very odd decision when there are many other trails. Wouldn't you try one you didn't already have an appointment for? That and how exactly they got lost in the first place. Hike up, turn around, hike back. That is why I was speculating about them pushing on to catch a glimpse of the ocean or something. Or maybe if they had a dog with them, the dog ran off and they chased it? Or an animal scared them. The condition of the bag is a little weird, but I kind of wonder if some tribal member found it right away and was holding onto it, and then as they heard about the missing girls and decided what to do, he/she decided to turn it in. That would explain the good condition. There just doesn't really seem to be a need for some other actor in this story given the evidence at hand. The girls went hiking, made a bad decision at some point, and then weren't able to rough it out in the jungle (which shouldn't be that surprising).

    I think the missing photo is just a red herring that means nothing. I also think the theorizing about them "calling regularly" while captives is just borderline absurd. I don't are how sure you are abut the lack of reception, you don't leave foreigners with their electronics while holding them captive, especially not for days.

    The thing I find most odd about this is actually the simple idea of them going to the trailhead they had hired a guide for for the following day. Seems a very odd decision when there are many other trails. Wouldn't you try one you didn't already have an appointment for? That and how exactly they got lost in the first place. Hike up, turn around, hike back. That is why I was speculating about them pushing on to catch a glimpse of the ocean or something. Or maybe if they had a dog with them, the dog ran off and they chased it? Or an animal scared them. The condition of the bag is a little weird, but I kind of wonder if some tribal member found it right away and was holding onto it, and then as they heard about the missing girls and decided what to do, he/she decided to turn it in. That would explain the good condition.

    There just doesn't really seem to be a need for some other actor in this story given the evidence at hand. The girls went hiking, made a bad decision at some point, and then weren't able to rough it out in the jungle (which shouldn't be that surprising).

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Agreed Nicole! Smart, you nailed it. Cheers Nic

    Agreed Nicole! Smart, you nailed it.
    Cheers Nic

  • Rana

    Rana Kansas

    What about the guide that was going to take them on this hiking trail initially. You mentioned they chose not to go with him, but maybe he showed up? Convenient how a guide (even though it was the guide for the next days activities, could be related) started the frenzy of them being missing? Did the guide end up meeting them on the trail anyway, and lead them astray?

    What about the guide that was going to take them on this hiking trail initially. You mentioned they chose not to go with him, but maybe he showed up? Convenient how a guide (even though it was the guide for the next days activities, could be related) started the frenzy of them being missing? Did the guide end up meeting them on the trail anyway, and lead them astray?

  • Chandice

    Chandice Montana

    Hi, sorry if someone already mentioned this, I don't have time to read through all the comments right now, but you guys said the camera had to leave the jungle, which isn't the case. Someone's laptop could have just as easily deleted it, which would explain why the picture was deleted... It's not a native person, it's someone with equipment who is recognizable and tech savvy, someone maybe working out there that the girls would have trusted?? Also, they may have wanted to keep the pic for themselves, like a trophy, so they pop it on the laptop and delete it from the card.

    Hi, sorry if someone already mentioned this, I don't have time to read through all the comments right now, but you guys said the camera had to leave the jungle, which isn't the case. Someone's laptop could have just as easily deleted it, which would explain why the picture was deleted... It's not a native person, it's someone with equipment who is recognizable and tech savvy, someone maybe working out there that the girls would have trusted?? Also, they may have wanted to keep the pic for themselves, like a trophy, so they pop it on the laptop and delete it from the card.

  • Kristen V

    Kristen V San Francisco, CA

    What I am still confused about is the BACKPACK. There are so many conflicting reports on this case, was there a consensus on how the backpack was found exactly? The accounts I've read say a woman in a nearby village found it dry and in good condition near her rice paddy one day, but was definitely not there the previous day she found it. Was she ever questioned thoroughly? Her account makes it sound as if someone placed it there to be found. Or more than just someone, as they found so many fingerprints on the pack. If we are to believe that Lisanne took the night photos, made the failed key code attempts, and turned either of the phones on for the last time, that means she had the backpack and all the belongings found inside. If the backpack and all the electronics inside are in good condition, but Lisanne is in decomposed pieces scattered throughout the jungle, how and when did she and the backpack get separated??

    What I am still confused about is the BACKPACK. There are so many conflicting reports on this case, was there a consensus on how the backpack was found exactly? The accounts I've read say a woman in a nearby village found it dry and in good condition near her rice paddy one day, but was definitely not there the previous day she found it. Was she ever questioned thoroughly? Her account makes it sound as if someone placed it there to be found. Or more than just someone, as they found so many fingerprints on the pack.

    If we are to believe that Lisanne took the night photos, made the failed key code attempts, and turned either of the phones on for the last time, that means she had the backpack and all the belongings found inside. If the backpack and all the electronics inside are in good condition, but Lisanne is in decomposed pieces scattered throughout the jungle, how and when did she and the backpack get separated??

  • Riiseli

    Riiseli Finland

    The camera was probably on the wrong time zone. They used the sun to determine how much it was off and compared these known dates/times to the later timestamps to figure out when the 90 photos were taken. As far as survival etc. go. I always think of Anja Kumpurinne aged five, who went missing from her home in late May 1963. She survived for more than a week and travelled some 40-50 miles on foot in the wilderness. Her fate was partially due to the underestimation of a five year old's ability to traverse in the Finnish Lapland.

    The camera was probably on the wrong time zone. They used the sun to determine how much it was off and compared these known dates/times to the later timestamps to figure out when the 90 photos were taken.

    As far as survival etc. go. I always think of Anja Kumpurinne aged five, who went missing from her home in late May 1963. She survived for more than a week and travelled some 40-50 miles on foot in the wilderness. Her fate was partially due to the underestimation of a five year old's ability to traverse in the Finnish Lapland.

  • VintageBunnyPrincess

    VintageBunnyPrincess California

    When I look at the night photos, my first thought is that they decided to use their camera flash as a source of light because they didn’t want to drain their phone batteries. She might have “flashed” the ground to see if it’s safe to walk in there or if it’s too steep etc..?

    When I look at the night photos, my first thought is that they decided to use their camera flash as a source of light because they didn’t want to drain their phone batteries. She might have “flashed” the ground to see if it’s safe to walk in there or if it’s too steep etc..?

  • Jen

    Jen Sacramento

    I read a similar comment above and agree, this sounds like it could be a similar situation to the recent story of the missionary killed on the remote Indian island by the natives. The girls may have come too close to the village.

    I read a similar comment above and agree, this sounds like it could be a similar situation to the recent story of the missionary killed on the remote Indian island by the natives. The girls may have come too close to the village.

  • EE

    EE Davis, CA

    The mirror in the center of the patterns made with the items is certain imo. That is to reflect searchlight and be detectable to overhead searches. The patterns are to indicate where the person(s) went afterward in hopes that the searchers will go that way and find them.

    The mirror in the center of the patterns made with the items is certain imo. That is to reflect searchlight and be detectable to overhead searches. The patterns are to indicate where the person(s) went afterward in hopes that the searchers will go that way and find them.

  • Terra

    Terra Nebraska

    Hey guys, Not sure if it was mentioned, I'm at work and can be caught using my phone... What if one of the girls had died or fallen or something so the other took a picture of her and the surrounding area as a reference if she found help. She may have later deleted it knowing they would never be found and she didn't want the families to see that final possibly disturbing image.

    Hey guys,

    Not sure if it was mentioned, I'm at work and can be caught using my phone...

    What if one of the girls had died or fallen or something so the other took a picture of her and the surrounding area as a reference if she found help. She may have later deleted it knowing they would never be found and she didn't want the families to see that final possibly disturbing image.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    @ Riiseli - I think this s brilliant and clears up questions, BIG question - I had. Thank you! Nic

    @ Riiseli - I think this s brilliant and clears up questions, BIG question - I had. Thank you!
    Nic

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    @Terra - we were fumbling around that a bit but did hit on that specifically. This is an excellent thought presented by you but we have investigators saying it was not deleted from the camera. Again - Istill question that but have to rely on the "experts" Nic

    @Terra - we were fumbling around that a bit but did hit on that specifically. This is an excellent thought presented by you but we have investigators saying it was not deleted from the camera. Again - Istill question that but have to rely on the "experts"
    Nic

  • Stephanie

    Stephanie FL

    They were lost. Inexperienced people can get turned around and lose a trail fairly quickly in an area of dense foliage. Looks as though attempts at emergency calls and the checking of the signal and even not entering a pin indicates they were being frugal with the phone batteries. They were likely desperate, of course. The strange pictures were taken after days of being lost. Someone without food and a good source of water and with no idea if they would ever find their way out would not be interested in making photos that convey meaning, but rather they would use the camera with flash as a tool for survival.

    They were lost. Inexperienced people can get turned around and lose a trail fairly quickly in an area of dense foliage. Looks as though attempts at emergency calls and the checking of the signal and even not entering a pin indicates they were being frugal with the phone batteries. They were likely desperate, of course. The strange pictures were taken after days of being lost. Someone without food and a good source of water and with no idea if they would ever find their way out would not be interested in making photos that convey meaning, but rather they would use the camera with flash as a tool for survival.

  • Mandy

    Mandy Wisconsin

    I was thinking, you said one of the women- I think, maybe I’m confusing it with the case that was on before this one- you said one was into more “extream sports” and wanted to go on a more “extream” hike and convinced the other, But like you did say in the 2nd episode, they realized too late that they made a mistake in realizing just how lost they had become and how jungly the jungle actually was. Forests in Europe are definitely different than the cloud forest and they got over their head.

    I was thinking, you said one of the women- I think, maybe I’m confusing it with the case that was on before this one- you said one was into more “extream sports” and wanted to go on a more “extream” hike and convinced the other, But like you did say in the 2nd episode, they realized too late that they made a mistake in realizing just how lost they had become and how jungly the jungle actually was. Forests in Europe are definitely different than the cloud forest and they got over their head.

  • Lynn

    Lynn North Dakota

    I would have used the camera to ward off animals in the night.

    I would have used the camera to ward off animals in the night.

  • Billy

    Billy Sweden

    I have a clue how they went to. but not quite done yet. One thing I wonder has nobody through searched their rooms understand many want to look for image 509? The picture that exists outside where they lived is a laptop on the table. they can simply delete the image, can they delete themselves? I will describe what I think what happened when I put up everything

    I have a clue how they went to. but not quite done yet. One thing I wonder has nobody through searched their rooms understand many want to look for image 509? The picture that exists outside where they lived is a laptop on the table. they can simply delete the image, can they delete themselves? I will describe what I think what happened when I put up everything

  • Billy

    Billy Sweden

    One thing more if they was missing why did they not ping there phones? First time?

    One thing more if they was missing why did they not ping there phones? First time?

  • Sarah P

    Sarah P Australia

    Just a thought about the bras - could the girls have worn the bras to swim in & taken them off to dry? Maybe they didn't want to deal with wet t-shirt shenanigans if they decided to go for a swim! I believe this wasn't an accident but that they were spotted by a local weirdo while cooling off somewhere. The perp then takes the backpack from the edge of the water & uses this as manipulation to get them to do what they want! Funny how it just turns up one day in perfect condition. Guilty conscious of someone who knows something perhaps! ps. A question for the Captian - you know when you say you're not really sure about something, why do you say 'for sure'? Is that an American thing? eg. you say, "I think they did, but I'm not really 'for sure'....etc....just wondering. Love you guys xx

    Just a thought about the bras - could the girls have worn the bras to swim in & taken them off to dry? Maybe they didn't want to deal with wet t-shirt shenanigans if they decided to go for a swim!
    I believe this wasn't an accident but that they were spotted by a local weirdo while cooling off somewhere. The perp then takes the backpack from the edge of the water & uses this as manipulation to get them to do what they want! Funny how it just turns up one day in perfect condition. Guilty conscious of someone who knows something perhaps!
    ps. A question for the Captian - you know when you say you're not really sure about something, why do you say 'for sure'?
    Is that an American thing? eg. you say, "I think they did, but I'm not really 'for sure'....etc....just wondering.
    Love you guys xx

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    @Billy please share with all of us once you are finished. We would love to read another good theory. Cheers Nic

    @Billy please share with all of us once you are finished. We would love to read another good theory.
    Cheers Nic

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    @Sarah P - I think you are likely right regarding the bras but who knows, for sure... I'll answer for the Captain... I think the for sure thing is an American thing. I say it as well and not until you pointed it out did I realize how funny it sounds. I can't stop now though, for sure! Nic

    @Sarah P - I think you are likely right regarding the bras but who knows, for sure...
    I'll answer for the Captain... I think the for sure thing is an American thing. I say it as well and not until you pointed it out did I realize how funny it sounds. I can't stop now though, for sure!
    Nic

  • Marvin R

    Marvin R Virginia

    I believe the girls were murdered and most likely dismembered and buried in various places with only a few fragments getting dropped by the killer while walking to a burial site. I believe the killer then took their belongings home and went theough he camera and discovered that he was captured in photo 509. He then subsequently deleted that photo before taking the camera back out to the jungle and took purposefully random pictures inthe dark to make it look like the girls were lost and frantic in the dark jungle before dying. He then probably just dispised of the backpack where he knew it would be discovered to meke it seem more likely that the girls were not murdered but simply got lost and died in the jungle.

    I believe the girls were murdered and most likely dismembered and buried in various places with only a few fragments getting dropped by the killer while walking to a burial site. I believe the killer then took their belongings home and went theough he camera and discovered that he was captured in photo 509. He then subsequently deleted that photo before taking the camera back out to the jungle and took purposefully random pictures inthe dark to make it look like the girls were lost and frantic in the dark jungle before dying. He then probably just dispised of the backpack where he knew it would be discovered to meke it seem more likely that the girls were not murdered but simply got lost and died in the jungle.

  • Wade

    Wade Indiana

    @gibal I have never seen a better definition of RAM in my life

    @gibal I have never seen a better definition of RAM in my life

  • Beth

    Beth Washington

    Hey guys, I tracked down the beer from this episode and bought the last 6-er they had at my local market. Had 2 last night....super delicious! Thanks for the recommendation and I am pleased to see the 5 out of 5 bottle caps!

    Hey guys,
    I tracked down the beer from this episode and bought the last 6-er they had at my local market. Had 2 last night....super delicious! Thanks for the recommendation and I am pleased to see the 5 out of 5 bottle caps!

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Yeah I love that beer - one of my favorites right now. Cheers to you Beth! -Nic

    Yeah I love that beer - one of my favorites right now.
    Cheers to you Beth!
    -Nic

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