Room 309 /// 350 /// 351

32 comments

  • Dave

    Dave Canada

    Some of your criticism about the Canadian justice system, is poorly informed as is your knowledge of Canadian geography. Please visit any province in Canada sometime to better appreciate your friendly neighbour to the North.

    Some of your criticism about the Canadian justice system, is poorly informed as is your knowledge of Canadian geography. Please visit any province in Canada sometime to better appreciate your friendly neighbour to the North.

  • Tracey

    Tracey U.K

    Here in the U.K we have the same punishment for murder as in Canada. Sentences are concurrent and most of the time 25 years with parole after half the time served is pretty standard for murder . Occasionally in particularly heinous crimes like brady/hinley, Peter Sutcliffe, Harold Shipman who were all serial killers they can get a whole life tariff but there are only 60 or so prisoners who have been handed a whole life tariff. Our sentences are soft, a murderer can get out in 12.5 years if they have behaved themselves inside and shown some remorse. If they plead guilty it also goes in their favour. Its madness. Link to further info https://fullfact.org/crime/how-long-do-murderers-serve-prison/

    Here in the U.K we have the same punishment for murder as in Canada. Sentences are concurrent and most of the time 25 years with parole after half the time served is pretty standard for murder . Occasionally in particularly heinous crimes like brady/hinley, Peter Sutcliffe, Harold Shipman who were all serial killers they can get a whole life tariff but there are only 60 or so prisoners who have been handed a whole life tariff.

    Our sentences are soft, a murderer can get out in 12.5 years if they have behaved themselves inside and shown some remorse. If they plead guilty it also goes in their favour. Its madness.

    Link to further info https://fullfact.org/crime/how-long-do-murderers-serve-prison/

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Hi Dave your statements are confusing - can you please inform us? Thanks Nic

    Hi Dave your statements are confusing - can you please inform us?
    Thanks Nic

  • J

    J Canada

    We definitely have much laxer sentences in Canada for murder than the US. Most offenders including those convicted of manslaughter will only serve 1/3 of their sentence or 7 years which ever is less. For offenders serving a life sentence, parole eligibility is set by the Court at the time of sentencing. For first degree murder, eligibility is automatically set at 25 years, and for second degree murder, eligibility may be set at between 10 to 25 years. One of the only ways a serious criminal can be denied parole is to be declared a "dangerous offender" (think Paul Bernardo) "The Dangerous Offender provisions of the Criminal Code are intended to protect all Canadians from the most dangerous violent and sexual predators in the country. ... Where an offender is designated by the court as a Dangerous Offender, the offender may be sentenced to an indeterminate sentence of imprisonment." This declaration is quite rare in Canada. Love your show!

    We definitely have much laxer sentences in Canada for murder than the US. Most offenders including those convicted of manslaughter will only serve 1/3 of their sentence or 7 years which ever is less. For offenders serving a life sentence, parole eligibility is set by the Court at the time of sentencing. For first degree murder, eligibility is automatically set at 25 years, and for second degree murder, eligibility may be set at between 10 to 25 years.

    One of the only ways a serious criminal can be denied parole is to be declared a "dangerous offender" (think Paul Bernardo)

    "The Dangerous Offender provisions of the Criminal Code are intended to protect all Canadians from the most dangerous violent and sexual predators in the country. ... Where an offender is designated by the court as a Dangerous Offender, the offender may be sentenced to an indeterminate sentence of imprisonment." This declaration is quite rare in Canada. Love your show!

  • Sabrina

    Sabrina Tampa, FL

    This kind of case makes me so mad. Are we or are we not all responsible for ourselves in this world?????? If we are not responsible for another single thing in this world, we are 100% responsible for ourselves. If someone decides to drink, do drugs, get high, and "doesn't remember what they did" after, too freaking bad. You decided to drink, do drugs, you can take what comes with that whether you remember or not. It makes me mad that the lawyer said he didn't prey on a person and set out to do it, well that man was still murdered, not coming home to his family, so I DONT REALLY GIVE 2 CRAPS if you set out to do it or not, or if you remember, you did it, you pay the price. we are all responsible for ourselves, so if you don't want to do something you will regret or "forget" I would suggest not drinking, doing drugs and pills to the point of killing and dismembering a person, or even to the point you do anything you don't want to have to pay in jail for. If you can decide to do what led you to "blacking out" then you decided to deal with whatever you did when you can't remember.

    This kind of case makes me so mad. Are we or are we not all responsible for ourselves in this world?????? If we are not responsible for another single thing in this world, we are 100% responsible for ourselves. If someone decides to drink, do drugs, get high, and "doesn't remember what they did" after, too freaking bad. You decided to drink, do drugs, you can take what comes with that whether you remember or not.

    It makes me mad that the lawyer said he didn't prey on a person and set out to do it, well that man was still murdered, not coming home to his family, so I DONT REALLY GIVE 2 CRAPS if you set out to do it or not, or if you remember, you did it, you pay the price.

    we are all responsible for ourselves, so if you don't want to do something you will regret or "forget" I would suggest not drinking, doing drugs and pills to the point of killing and dismembering a person, or even to the point you do anything you don't want to have to pay in jail for. If you can decide to do what led you to "blacking out" then you decided to deal with whatever you did when you can't remember.

  • Adam

    Adam Canada

    As of 2011 Consecutive sentencing does exist in Canada.

    As of 2011 Consecutive sentencing does exist in Canada.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    @ J and Adam - thank you both and everyone for your input. The dangerous offender provision I thought we covered but obviously not, meant to. Consecutive sentencing only makes much sense and it’s a big step in the right direction. Cheers Nic

    @ J and Adam - thank you both and everyone for your input. The dangerous offender provision I thought we covered but obviously not, meant to.
    Consecutive sentencing only makes much sense and it’s a big step in the right direction.
    Cheers Nic

  • Mich

    Mich Cleveland OH

    I wouldn't say it's necessarily a Canada/UK thing. More than several times (moreso when I dealt with contractors) in my career working background screening I've come across people with heavy-duty criminal convictions (murder, armed robbery, rape) who were sentenced to long terms, 20+ years, and here I am not even ten years later finding these convictions because these guys are out looking for a job.

    I wouldn't say it's necessarily a Canada/UK thing. More than several times (moreso when I dealt with contractors) in my career working background screening I've come across people with heavy-duty criminal convictions (murder, armed robbery, rape) who were sentenced to long terms, 20+ years, and here I am not even ten years later finding these convictions because these guys are out looking for a job.

  • Kaleb

    Kaleb Illinois

    Anyone wanting a real good podcast on Dennis Nilson, check out Serial Killers - Kindly Killer.

    Anyone wanting a real good podcast on Dennis Nilson, check out Serial Killers - Kindly Killer.

  • Natalee

    Natalee Grand Ledge, MI

    The problem with the justice system in the West and other places is not the length of time someone should be incarcerated as a means of punishment, but rather, it's the fact that rehabilitation and reform are sadly lacking. Every person deserves mercy and should have the chance to redeem themselves, even this guy. I have a master's in psychology and I get that sociopathy is considered to be "incurable", and indeed, it may be. That said, even the vilest of humans CAN learn how to be productive in society and to control their behavior, even if they don't fully feel why they should do so. But they have to be given this opportunity, and they are usually not.

    The problem with the justice system in the West and other places is not the length of time someone should be incarcerated as a means of punishment, but rather, it's the fact that rehabilitation and reform are sadly lacking. Every person deserves mercy and should have the chance to redeem themselves, even this guy. I have a master's in psychology and I get that sociopathy is considered to be "incurable", and indeed, it may be. That said, even the vilest of humans CAN learn how to be productive in society and to control their behavior, even if they don't fully feel why they should do so. But they have to be given this opportunity, and they are usually not.

  • RACHEL

    RACHEL O-H-I-O

    Natalee, obviously you are a very educated woman, far more so than I. :) I appreciate what you are saying. And I agree to a certain extent. But sociopaths/psychopaths can only be taught to blend in and be good citizens if it benefits them personally. Most of them are currently doing just that and we all know at least one and don't even know it, because they choose to make decisions that help them in the long term. But they have nothing but their own judgment holding them back from any number of actions that would be harmful for others. Do you trust that judgment? I don't! They are like lions in a zoo. You can teach them tricks by rewarding them and teach them how to ignore their animal impulses in return for their needs being met. But it's a system built on where they place their value at that moment. And if at any time, their animal impulses shift and take priority over their immediate needs of belonging to a community, then all bets are off. The paralimbic dysfunction seen in this personality disorder make these people dangerous, period. I read in Dr. Hare's book that he once asked a white collar criminal psychopath what prevented him from killing someone. The guy responded he hadn't needed to so far, but if he ever did need to in order to achieve his aim, he wouldn't think twice about it. They are uninhibited by right and wrong as we know it. To expound on that, less than 1% of psychopaths/sociopaths are violent offenders, like Jeffey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, etc. To build a system of rehabilitation that puts the majority of the population at risk to attempt to help such a small population of criminals that don't want to be helped is absurd to me. And I promise, they don't want to be helped. They are apex predators and like being on top. Everything they do is self-serving. If you see contrition, of which they are incapable according to neuroscience, then it's because they want you to see it so they can get something from you. That thought process though, of wanting to help people like them, does illustrate why psychopaths are so dangerous and also effective...because we project onto them our own feelings and we want for them what we would want for us or anyone else capable of emotion and remorse. But their similarities to a neurotypical person do not extend much beyond outward appearances. There is no humanity in them.

    Natalee, obviously you are a very educated woman, far more so than I. smile I appreciate what you are saying. And I agree to a certain extent. But sociopaths/psychopaths can only be taught to blend in and be good citizens if it benefits them personally. Most of them are currently doing just that and we all know at least one and don't even know it, because they choose to make decisions that help them in the long term. But they have nothing but their own judgment holding them back from any number of actions that would be harmful for others. Do you trust that judgment? I don't! They are like lions in a zoo. You can teach them tricks by rewarding them and teach them how to ignore their animal impulses in return for their needs being met. But it's a system built on where they place their value at that moment. And if at any time, their animal impulses shift and take priority over their immediate needs of belonging to a community, then all bets are off. The paralimbic dysfunction seen in this personality disorder make these people dangerous, period. I read in Dr. Hare's book that he once asked a white collar criminal psychopath what prevented him from killing someone. The guy responded he hadn't needed to so far, but if he ever did need to in order to achieve his aim, he wouldn't think twice about it. They are uninhibited by right and wrong as we know it. To expound on that, less than 1% of psychopaths/sociopaths are violent offenders, like Jeffey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, etc. To build a system of rehabilitation that puts the majority of the population at risk to attempt to help such a small population of criminals that don't want to be helped is absurd to me. And I promise, they don't want to be helped. They are apex predators and like being on top. Everything they do is self-serving. If you see contrition, of which they are incapable according to neuroscience, then it's because they want you to see it so they can get something from you. That thought process though, of wanting to help people like them, does illustrate why psychopaths are so dangerous and also effective...because we project onto them our own feelings and we want for them what we would want for us or anyone else capable of emotion and remorse. But their similarities to a neurotypical person do not extend much beyond outward appearances. There is no humanity in them.

  • Mariana

    Mariana Montreal, Canada

    Hi guys, Like some other Canadian listeners, I definitely take offence to the way the Canadian justice system was depicted in this episode. Not only were some things factually untrue, but also, the suggestion that our justice system does not go far enough to reprimand convicted criminals is baseless. For one, the defence of voluntary intoxication exists only for certain crimes, murder being one of them. The logic behind this is similar to the logic behind the insanity defence. However, unlike the insanity defence, the voluntary intoxication defence does not mean the person will be let go. They will still be found guilty if the Crown can prove that the accused did in fact commit the action, but he or she will be convicted of a lesser crime. Second of all, consecutive sentences do in fact exist in Canada. They're rare, sure, but they do exist. As recently as last year, Alexandre Bissonnette (a guy who killed 6 men in cold blood) was given consecutive sentences. Obviously, unlike in the U.S., sentences of 150 years are never handed down, namely because the Supreme Court deems such sentences as 'cruel and unusual punishment', and a breach of constitutional rights. And finally, when someone gets a life sentence in Canada with a possibility of parole, the key word there is POSSIBILITY. Here in Canada, we advocate for rehabilitation rather than punishment for punishment's sake. It's one of the reasons why our prison system is not a privatized money-making machine like it is in the U.S. However, when a dangerous offender or a serial killer is put away for life, his or her chances of getting out in 25 years are virtually nil (think Paul Bernardo and Clifford Olson). The way you covered life sentences in Canada made it sound like after 25 years, the criminal will almost certainly get out, which is ridiculous. Someone like Robert Pickton for example, will never get out, even if he is serving his life sentences concurrently. I would advise you to err on the side of caution when covering cases outside of the U.S.

    Hi guys,

    Like some other Canadian listeners, I definitely take offence to the way the Canadian justice system was depicted in this episode. Not only were some things factually untrue, but also, the suggestion that our justice system does not go far enough to reprimand convicted criminals is baseless.

    For one, the defence of voluntary intoxication exists only for certain crimes, murder being one of them. The logic behind this is similar to the logic behind the insanity defence. However, unlike the insanity defence, the voluntary intoxication defence does not mean the person will be let go. They will still be found guilty if the Crown can prove that the accused did in fact commit the action, but he or she will be convicted of a lesser crime. Second of all, consecutive sentences do in fact exist in Canada. They're rare, sure, but they do exist. As recently as last year, Alexandre Bissonnette (a guy who killed 6 men in cold blood) was given consecutive sentences. Obviously, unlike in the U.S., sentences of 150 years are never handed down, namely because the Supreme Court deems such sentences as 'cruel and unusual punishment', and a breach of constitutional rights. And finally, when someone gets a life sentence in Canada with a possibility of parole, the key word there is POSSIBILITY. Here in Canada, we advocate for rehabilitation rather than punishment for punishment's sake. It's one of the reasons why our prison system is not a privatized money-making machine like it is in the U.S. However, when a dangerous offender or a serial killer is put away for life, his or her chances of getting out in 25 years are virtually nil (think Paul Bernardo and Clifford Olson).

    The way you covered life sentences in Canada made it sound like after 25 years, the criminal will almost certainly get out, which is ridiculous. Someone like Robert Pickton for example, will never get out, even if he is serving his life sentences concurrently.

    I would advise you to err on the side of caution when covering cases outside of the U.S.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Hi Mariana - thank you for you post. I will have to disagree with you in the sense that we are discussing a case from 2003 and for that what I stated was true for 2003. The US justice system is not without its flaws as is all countries. It's our job (citizens) to critique and mold the rules and laws of the societies we live in. We are our brother's keeper. By the way I've always wanted to go to Montreal - I've heard great things. Cheers to our friends up north! Go Raptors! Nic

    Hi Mariana - thank you for you post. I will have to disagree with you in the sense that we are discussing a case from 2003 and for that what I stated was true for 2003. The US justice system is not without its flaws as is all countries. It's our job (citizens) to critique and mold the rules and laws of the societies we live in. We are our brother's keeper.
    By the way I've always wanted to go to Montreal - I've heard great things.
    Cheers to our friends up north! Go Raptors!
    Nic

  • Mariana

    Mariana Montreal, Canada

    Nic, you should definitely come to Montreal. It's an awesome place!

    Nic, you should definitely come to Montreal. It's an awesome place!

  • Becky

    Becky Illinois

    Is anyone else wondering what happened to the organs????

    Is anyone else wondering what happened to the organs????

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    I'm putting Montreal on my bucket list! I haven't been to Canada since I was a kid. It was one of my favorite childhood memories. The fishing was absolutely the best. My favorite part of the trip... the campgrounds had a big clubhouse. We shot a lot of pool (billiards) and November rain - just came out, we played it over and over on the Juke Box. Oh, to be a kid again! Nic

    I'm putting Montreal on my bucket list! I haven't been to Canada since I was a kid. It was one of my favorite childhood memories. The fishing was absolutely the best. My favorite part of the trip... the campgrounds had a big clubhouse. We shot a lot of pool (billiards) and November rain - just came out, we played it over and over on the Juke Box.
    Oh, to be a kid again!
    Nic

  • Coy

    Coy Lexington Ky

    I understand that most Americans value our harsh penalties but the way Canada does it doesn’t mean these people are ever getting out. It just means at some point everything can be reviewed. Considering how many cases of unjust inprisonment you have covered on the show I would have thought that you would see the value in such a system.Hell Texas is probably going to execute a man in a couple of days that may be innocent.

    I understand that most Americans value our harsh penalties but the way Canada does it doesn’t mean these people are ever getting out. It just means at some point everything can be reviewed. Considering how many cases of unjust inprisonment you have covered on the show I would have thought that you would see the value in such a system.Hell Texas is probably going to execute a man in a couple of days that may be innocent.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    That’s a great point - Coy. Cheers Nic

    That’s a great point - Coy.
    Cheers Nic

  • Natalee

    Natalee Grand Ledge

    To Rachel...I don't believe that murderous psychopaths should simply be let go. I do think that the justice system needs a different approach. While they should not be allowed to live among us, at least until they receive help, I don't think that "punishment" or "justice" serves any meaning in this process. What bothers me most is the culture of sacrificing another person because they sacrificed someone else. That's not justice, that's just more sacrifice because we don't know what else to do. We are all like lions in a zoo, and we will kill to protect our own. Even to the point of capital punishment, and I disagree with this perspective. We are all capable of murder, and we prove it every single day in multiple ways. The murder of animals, the environment, and ultimately, each other. I believe that reform in the justice system is possible. There are many countries that treat criminals much more humanely, and surprise, surprise, the recidivism rate is much lower. We should be looking at these countries, such as Norway, which has a recidivism rate of 20% - which has the lowest in the world, vs. the U.S., which is 71%. Do they have fewer psychopaths per capita? Perhaps, but if they do, we should seriously consider why we have so damn many compared to other countries. Psychopathy is not just about biology - there's certainly early environmental factors involved and those, unlike genetics, can be controlled. But there has to be a massive societal intervention to make that happen. https://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12

    To Rachel...I don't believe that murderous psychopaths should simply be let go. I do think that the justice system needs a different approach. While they should not be allowed to live among us, at least until they receive help, I don't think that "punishment" or "justice" serves any meaning in this process. What bothers me most is the culture of sacrificing another person because they sacrificed someone else. That's not justice, that's just more sacrifice because we don't know what else to do. We are all like lions in a zoo, and we will kill to protect our own. Even to the point of capital punishment, and I disagree with this perspective. We are all capable of murder, and we prove it every single day in multiple ways. The murder of animals, the environment, and ultimately, each other.

    I believe that reform in the justice system is possible. There are many countries that treat criminals much more humanely, and surprise, surprise, the recidivism rate is much lower. We should be looking at these countries, such as Norway, which has a recidivism rate of 20% - which has the lowest in the world, vs. the U.S., which is 71%. Do they have fewer psychopaths per capita? Perhaps, but if they do, we should seriously consider why we have so damn many compared to other countries. Psychopathy is not just about biology - there's certainly early environmental factors involved and those, unlike genetics, can be controlled. But there has to be a massive societal intervention to make that happen.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12

  • RACHEL

    RACHEL O-H-I-O

    Natalee, thank you for the response! If you read anything from Dr. Robert Hare (the creator of the PCL-R and world leader on Psychopathy) he states simply that they cannot be reformed. He works with them everyday in prisons. Talking about reforming a psychopath is like talking about teaching a frog to fly or a whale to walk. I understand what you are saying but I think perhaps you don't understand what I am saying. My fault. Probably not being clear enough :) Also, psychopaths are born. If you want to talk about the same disorder with a different etymology, coming from environment, then you are talking about sociopaths. Mary Bell is a wonderful example of one that as far as we know, never committed other crimes, but again, that is training, and for their own benefit. I am afraid it simply is biology. There are neuro scans that are done to conclusively diagnose psychopathy/sociopathy. Their brans are different, period. That having been said, where other types of criminals are found, I do believe in rehabilitation. My comment was addressing the previous comment on psychopaths. And yes, I love a lot of things about Norways justice system! I actually think a lot can be learned from the Scandinavian countries management of both the judicial system and the economic one. New Zealand too!

    Natalee, thank you for the response! If you read anything from Dr. Robert Hare (the creator of the PCL-R and world leader on Psychopathy) he states simply that they cannot be reformed. He works with them everyday in prisons. Talking about reforming a psychopath is like talking about teaching a frog to fly or a whale to walk. I understand what you are saying but I think perhaps you don't understand what I am saying. My fault. Probably not being clear enough smile Also, psychopaths are born. If you want to talk about the same disorder with a different etymology, coming from environment, then you are talking about sociopaths. Mary Bell is a wonderful example of one that as far as we know, never committed other crimes, but again, that is training, and for their own benefit. I am afraid it simply is biology. There are neuro scans that are done to conclusively diagnose psychopathy/sociopathy. Their brans are different, period. That having been said, where other types of criminals are found, I do believe in rehabilitation. My comment was addressing the previous comment on psychopaths. And yes, I love a lot of things about Norways justice system! I actually think a lot can be learned from the Scandinavian countries management of both the judicial system and the economic one. New Zealand too!

  • Randy

    Randy Indiana

    Natalee---It is very obvious Norway does things much different than the United States. There are many factors that go into that. I would point to one of the biggest ways Norway "protects" its citizens is its assimilation policies. I won't go into a lecture about that or get too political, but look into it. If anything along those lines were to be implemented in the United States we'd be seen as xenophobic. I will say though the way they raise their children and streamline their population towards assimilating goes a long way in regards to their rehabilitation of people outside their norm. Every one there is so in line that culturally it is unacceptable to be out of line. It is a mindset of the culture. Unfortunately/fortunately here in the United States there is vast amount of cultural differences, including thug, gang, extremist pockets that promote criminal behavior and that carries on to their children and so forth. Just something to think about. I don't disagree that in this instance Norway rehabilitates their criminals better (or even has less to begin with) but again how much assimilation should there be.

    Natalee---It is very obvious Norway does things much different than the United States. There are many factors that go into that. I would point to one of the biggest ways Norway "protects" its citizens is its assimilation policies. I won't go into a lecture about that or get too political, but look into it. If anything along those lines were to be implemented in the United States we'd be seen as xenophobic. I will say though the way they raise their children and streamline their population towards assimilating goes a long way in regards to their rehabilitation of people outside their norm. Every one there is so in line that culturally it is unacceptable to be out of line. It is a mindset of the culture. Unfortunately/fortunately here in the United States there is vast amount of cultural differences, including thug, gang, extremist pockets that promote criminal behavior and that carries on to their children and so forth. Just something to think about. I don't disagree that in this instance Norway rehabilitates their criminals better (or even has less to begin with) but again how much assimilation should there be.

  • Becca

    Becca Edmonton

    As a Canadian, I am also disgusted with the lighter punishment for a lot of crimes, as the system focuses on rehabilitation. As a wise man once said, “You can’t rehabilitate a person that was never habilitated in the first place”. I can’t say I’m on board with the American solution as overpopulation and millions spent on death sentence appeals doesn’t seem to be the answer either. I’m sure we can all agree there is no “right” answer as perpetrators and crimes are as individual as humans ourselves. That being said, I did almost stop listening to the episode due to the over simplification of our justice system. I didn’t, ‘cause I love y’all, but it was frustrating. What I’m really left wondering is about the “figure eight” symbol that was carved into the body. What that symbol oriented vertically or horizontally? Cheers!

    As a Canadian, I am also disgusted with the lighter punishment for a lot of crimes, as the system focuses on rehabilitation. As a wise man once said, “You can’t rehabilitate a person that was never habilitated in the first place”. I can’t say I’m on board with the American solution as overpopulation and millions spent on death sentence appeals doesn’t seem to be the answer either. I’m sure we can all agree there is no “right” answer as perpetrators and crimes are as individual as humans ourselves.
    That being said, I did almost stop listening to the episode due to the over simplification of our justice system. I didn’t, ‘cause I love y’all, but it was frustrating.
    What I’m really left wondering is about the “figure eight” symbol that was carved into the body. What that symbol oriented vertically or horizontally?
    Cheers!

  • Natalee

    Natalee Grand Ledge

    Rachel - yes I have studied psychopathy extensively. I did my master's thesis on it so to be clear, you don't have to tell me all this. Psychopaths are not always "born". They are also often generally a product of childhood neglect, bad parenting, and traumatic events. Show me a psychopath and I will show you a person who was treated in a way that was unlikely to help them develop any empathy if there was any potential for them to do so. In my thesis, I learned this and that proper parenting can prevent someone from becoming like these people. There are plenty of people out there with shallow emotions, but they don't go killing people willy nilly. That occurs usually because someone had a fucked-up childhood. Not always, but it's highly likely. Again, I'm not saying that we should just let me out, but they should be treated humanely, and It's our responsibility to at least try to reform them. Now, current technology may be able to do that in a way that is satisfactory. My question is, are there any researchers out there trying to do that? Is anyone trying to figure out how we can alter emotional processing? To say they are "incurable" is like saying we will never find a way to cure them. To me this is unsatisfactory. There are many diseases that in the past have been touted as incurable, but we found effective ways to manage them or fix them. I'll leave you with this excerpt that might give you a better idea of what I'm talking about, and realize that I'm not the only who feels this way: "If we continue without effective treatments for psychopathy, this could place the public, particularly unknowing, trusting romantic partners, at great risk. Without treatment, there are no global tools to protect our society (even to a small degree) from the impact of psychopathic behavior, thought styles and influence. This presents a problem because that means there will be more innocent victims who will wind up requiring legal and/or mental health assistance to deal with victimization." ~ Dr. Rhonda Freeman https://neuroinstincts.com/treatment-psychopathy/ Continuing this approach is unhelpful. We have to believe that there is a chance they can be treated. If we don't, we are simply giving up and no longer seeking answers. That's not the right way to go about things like this. I will also restate that other countries, like Norway, don't have this problem. Are Norwegians simply less likely to have psychopathy? If so, we should be asking why.

    Rachel - yes I have studied psychopathy extensively. I did my master's thesis on it so to be clear, you don't have to tell me all this. Psychopaths are not always "born". They are also often generally a product of childhood neglect, bad parenting, and traumatic events. Show me a psychopath and I will show you a person who was treated in a way that was unlikely to help them develop any empathy if there was any potential for them to do so. In my thesis, I learned this and that proper parenting can prevent someone from becoming like these people. There are plenty of people out there with shallow emotions, but they don't go killing people willy nilly. That occurs usually because someone had a fucked-up childhood. Not always, but it's highly likely.

    Again, I'm not saying that we should just let me out, but they should be treated humanely, and It's our responsibility to at least try to reform them. Now, current technology may be able to do that in a way that is satisfactory. My question is, are there any researchers out there trying to do that? Is anyone trying to figure out how we can alter emotional processing? To say they are "incurable" is like saying we will never find a way to cure them. To me this is unsatisfactory. There are many diseases that in the past have been touted as incurable, but we found effective ways to manage them or fix them. I'll leave you with this excerpt that might give you a better idea of what I'm talking about, and realize that I'm not the only who feels this way:

    "If we continue without effective treatments for psychopathy, this could place the public, particularly unknowing, trusting romantic partners, at great risk. Without treatment, there are no global tools to protect our society (even to a small degree) from the impact of psychopathic behavior, thought styles and influence. This presents a problem because that means there will be more innocent victims who will wind up requiring legal and/or mental health assistance to deal with victimization." ~ Dr. Rhonda Freeman
    https://neuroinstincts.com/treatment-psychopathy/

    Continuing this approach is unhelpful. We have to believe that there is a chance they can be treated. If we don't, we are simply giving up and no longer seeking answers. That's not the right way to go about things like this. I will also restate that other countries, like Norway, don't have this problem. Are Norwegians simply less likely to have psychopathy? If so, we should be asking why.

  • Natalee

    Natalee Grand Ledge, MI

    Randy - I certainly get what you are saying regarding cultural differences. My question is this - if Norway has fewer violent people or less "psychopaths" we should be asking why that is so. It due solely to assimilation, or what exactly does it involve? The U.S. incarcerates more people than any other country in the world I believe, and by a wide margin. We also have the highest recidivism rate. These two facts speak volumes about our inability to rehabilitate or reform.

    Randy - I certainly get what you are saying regarding cultural differences. My question is this - if Norway has fewer violent people or less "psychopaths" we should be asking why that is so. It due solely to assimilation, or what exactly does it involve? The U.S. incarcerates more people than any other country in the world I believe, and by a wide margin. We also have the highest recidivism rate. These two facts speak volumes about our inability to rehabilitate or reform.

  • mG

    mG

    Protecting citizens should always be the first responsibility of government. This man committed unspeakable evil ito another. Claiming he did not remember doing it makes him even more of a threat to society. How does one rehabilitate a person that supposedly has no control over their actions? He poses a threat as long as he breathes and should remain locked up forever.

    Protecting citizens should always be the first responsibility of government. This man committed unspeakable evil ito another. Claiming he did not remember doing it makes him even more of a threat to society. How does one rehabilitate a person that supposedly has no control over their actions? He poses a threat as long as he breathes and should remain locked up forever.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    mG you are exactly right! Nice jib! Nic

    mG you are exactly right!
    Nice jib!
    Nic

  • joe

    joe dirt

    Natalee- Sorry, but there are some people that are just plain born evil. There are born psychopaths and there are made psychopaths. Both are bad. A murderer is a murderer. The criminal justice system should be reformed to reflect the punishment, as it used to be before the world started getting soft. Some criminals do deserve second chances, but it's a known fact and statistics prove that rehabilitation rarely (keyword is rarely, not always) works. I have an immediate family member in/out of the prison system who is a shining example of this failed program. You wanna see more failed policies and government programs? Take a look at inner cities and their homeless and poverty problems.My bachelors in psychology, masters in common sense, and doctorate in logic and facts all confirm this. Thanks.

    Natalee- Sorry, but there are some people that are just plain born evil. There are born psychopaths and there are made psychopaths. Both are bad. A murderer is a murderer. The criminal justice system should be reformed to reflect the punishment, as it used to be before the world started getting soft. Some criminals do deserve second chances, but it's a known fact and statistics prove that rehabilitation rarely (keyword is rarely, not always) works. I have an immediate family member in/out of the prison system who is a shining example of this failed program. You wanna see more failed policies and government programs? Take a look at inner cities and their homeless and poverty problems.My bachelors in psychology, masters in common sense, and doctorate in logic and facts all confirm this. Thanks.

  • RACHEL

    RACHEL O-H-I-O

    Natalee, I am sorry I hurt your pride with my response somehow. Congratulations for writing a thesis. I was married to a diagnosed psychopath. So one could argue my "thesis" is contrived based on more than just research in a library. Psychopathy affects parts of life people don't even think of, like preferences for favorite colors or even sexual partners. So I am not going to argue with you at all because it appears you believe yourself to have reached the pinnacle in education on the matter. I am happy for you that your research, your degree, and everything else you have read so far has allowed you to have such a viewpoint of this issue. I envy your shiny outlook on the subject. I hope it serves you well.

    Natalee, I am sorry I hurt your pride with my response somehow. Congratulations for writing a thesis. I was married to a diagnosed psychopath. So one could argue my "thesis" is contrived based on more than just research in a library. Psychopathy affects parts of life people don't even think of, like preferences for favorite colors or even sexual partners. So I am not going to argue with you at all because it appears you believe yourself to have reached the pinnacle in education on the matter. I am happy for you that your research, your degree, and everything else you have read so far has allowed you to have such a viewpoint of this issue. I envy your shiny outlook on the subject. I hope it serves you well.

  • mG

    mG

    Congratulations on marrying a psychopath, Rachel. No two psychopaths are the same.

    Congratulations on marrying a psychopath, Rachel. No two psychopaths are the same.

  • Kevin

    Kevin Winnipeg

    I live in Winnipeg, and I think you nailed the story and our town. Great job.

    I live in Winnipeg, and I think you nailed the story and our town. Great job.

  • RACHEL

    RACHEL O-H-I-O

    MG, thank you for confirming that no two humans are identical. Mind blown. However, without classifications of symptoms the whole medical world would be obsolete, from the common cold to psychopathy, so I am afraid your snark holds no water. For anyone willing to do research on more than how to be snarky to strangers online, check this out: http://www.hare.org/ . I believe you will find many answers there. Education on the topic is how we can all protect ourselves. Which I truly want for all of you. Even the rude ones ;)

    MG, thank you for confirming that no two humans are identical. Mind blown. However, without classifications of symptoms the whole medical world would be obsolete, from the common cold to psychopathy, so I am afraid your snark holds no water. For anyone willing to do research on more than how to be snarky to strangers online, check this out: http://www.hare.org/ . I believe you will find many answers there. Education on the topic is how we can all protect ourselves. Which I truly want for all of you. Even the rude ones wink

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