The Disappearance of Maura Murray /// 152 /// 153

43 comments

  • J. James

    J. James Wis

    I hate to leave a critical review or msg for you guys but please, PLEASE don’t start doing podcasts like this from now on! You guys are my favorite podcast and I’d hate to see you turn this into an hour long book, movie or tv show pitch like some of the other “True Crime” podcasts out there. This is the first time I’ve ever actually not finished an episode. I was completely lost right from the start. No idea when this took place or anything like that. I actually thought I missed one. I’m just worried that we might start hearing “It’s all in the book...” coming from your podcast and I just HOPE that’s not the case. You guys do an awesome job and don’t let this one hold you up!

    I hate to leave a critical review or msg for you guys but please, PLEASE don’t start doing podcasts like this from now on! You guys are my favorite podcast and I’d hate to see you turn this into an hour long book, movie or tv show pitch like some of the other “True Crime” podcasts out there. This is the first time I’ve ever actually not finished an episode. I was completely lost right from the start. No idea when this took place or anything like that. I actually thought I missed one. I’m just worried that we might start hearing “It’s all in the book...” coming from your podcast and I just HOPE that’s not the case. You guys do an awesome job and don’t let this one hold you up!

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    J. James This def won't be the normal. I was just a fan of the doc I wanted to talk to them. Thanks for listening!!! Cheers Captain

    J. James

    This def won't be the normal. I was just a fan of the doc I wanted to talk to them. Thanks for listening!!!
    Cheers

    Captain

  • Sara

    Sara San Jose, Ca

    I agree with J. I didn’t finish it either. I want to know more about the actual case because now I’m interested. I guess I’ll gave to watch the documentary. You guys are awesome keep up your regular amazing podcasts😃

    I agree with J. I didn’t finish it either. I want to know more about the actual case because now I’m interested. I guess I’ll gave to watch the documentary. You guys are awesome keep up your regular amazing podcasts😃

  • Shannon

    Shannon Idaho

    I find this case fascinating. Thanks guys!

    I find this case fascinating. Thanks guys!

  • AJ

    AJ New Hampshire

    Wow. I couldn't even get through this. Renner is so creepy. Can't even stand his voice. Maggie needs to grow up and at least try a little professionalism. Art must be appalled. I feel sorry for him. By the way, I loved you guys, but this really sucked. I don't know if I'm a fan anymore. James Creepy Renner and Maggie and Art are definitely not the closest to this case. Wow. They sucked you in as well. I thought you were smarter.

    Wow. I couldn't even get through this. Renner is so creepy. Can't even stand his voice. Maggie needs to grow up and at least try a little professionalism. Art must be appalled. I feel sorry for him. By the way, I loved you guys, but this really sucked. I don't know if I'm a fan anymore. James Creepy Renner and Maggie and Art are definitely not the closest to this case. Wow. They sucked you in as well. I thought you were smarter.

  • Cathy

    Cathy

    Agree with J James... found it hard to follow... sad that i have to listen to other podcast because i have listened to EVERYTHING you have done in 2 months! Love you guys LOVE your PODCAST!!!!! tell everyone i know to listen...

    Agree with J James... found it hard to follow... sad that i have to listen to other podcast because i have listened to EVERYTHING you have done in 2 months! Love you guys LOVE your PODCAST!!!!! tell everyone i know to listen...

  • Nicole

    Nicole Miami, FL

    I must admit, I was thrown for a loop because I hadn't watched the documentary. I actually thought I missed a few podcast episodes because I was so confused. That being said, it would be nice if you guys could cover this case in your regular format to catch the rest of us up as to what happened and what your theories are.

    I must admit, I was thrown for a loop because I hadn't watched the documentary. I actually thought I missed a few podcast episodes because I was so confused. That being said, it would be nice if you guys could cover this case in your regular format to catch the rest of us up as to what happened and what your theories are.

  • K

    K PNW

    I have to say, I agree with J. James and am glad to hear this won't be the norm. My jaw dropped when creepy nutcase Renner referred to Fred as an 'odd duck', ugh. Also, if you are really into Maura Murray, I think you'd be intrigued by Leah Roberts whose disappearance is eerily similar. Similar age, car found in similar rural areas, etc. however, almost no coverage in comparison to MM.

    I have to say, I agree with J. James and am glad to hear this won't be the norm. My jaw dropped when creepy nutcase Renner referred to Fred as an 'odd duck', ugh.
    Also, if you are really into Maura Murray, I think you'd be intrigued by Leah Roberts whose disappearance is eerily similar. Similar age, car found in similar rural areas, etc. however, almost no coverage in comparison to MM.

  • Todd

    Todd

    I am having an issue with the "tandem driver" theory. At least a wanted "tandem driver". If Maura and another friendly person were driving to a location as tandem drivers, why did the dogs lose her scent 100 - 200 yards from the accident scene? If she wrecked and had a friendly tandem driver close behind, wouldn't she have simply got out of her car and waited 30 seconds or a minute until that friendly tandem driver reached her and then got in the car? Why start walking if you know a ride is seconds/minutes behind you? Just something that was bothering me.

    I am having an issue with the "tandem driver" theory. At least a wanted "tandem driver". If Maura and another friendly person were driving to a location as tandem drivers, why did the dogs lose her scent 100 - 200 yards from the accident scene? If she wrecked and had a friendly tandem driver close behind, wouldn't she have simply got out of her car and waited 30 seconds or a minute until that friendly tandem driver reached her and then got in the car? Why start walking if you know a ride is seconds/minutes behind you? Just something that was bothering me.

  • Tessa

    Tessa Ohio

    I haven't seen the documentary series but have been following this case for years hoping for answers. I enjoyed the episodes. I know James Renner has put a lot of work into this case and while controversial at times, I appreciate his effort. Thanks to you both! Looking forward to what comes next. Keep up the good work.

    I haven't seen the documentary series but have been following this case for years hoping for answers. I enjoyed the episodes. I know James Renner has put a lot of work into this case and while controversial at times, I appreciate his effort. Thanks to you both! Looking forward to what comes next. Keep up the good work.

  • Jarod

    Jarod California

    I have to agree with everyone else. I know nothing about this case and have not seen any of the documentary so I was confused throughout these episodes. I hope you guys will cover this case in your normal format. True crime garage is by far my favorite true crime podcast.

    I have to agree with everyone else. I know nothing about this case and have not seen any of the documentary so I was confused throughout these episodes. I hope you guys will cover this case in your normal format. True crime garage is by far my favorite true crime podcast.

  • Steph

    Steph San Diego

    TCG covered the Maura Murray case in podcast 29, 30, and 31 and did an amazing job. Check it out if you haven't already. Great job with interviewing Renner, Maggie, and Art. I've been interested in this case for years and have been following the docu-series on Oxygen. I wish you two had a cameo on the show with your valuable input. Keep up the great work, cheers mates!

    TCG covered the Maura Murray case in podcast 29, 30, and 31 and did an amazing job. Check it out if you haven't already.
    Great job with interviewing Renner, Maggie, and Art. I've been interested in this case for years and have been following the docu-series on Oxygen. I wish you two had a cameo on the show with your valuable input.
    Keep up the great work, cheers mates!

  • LouiseH

    LouiseH Michigan

    I was a little confused because you already had Maura Murray episodes with Renner a couple of years ago. I like him in that he's interesting and well-spoken, however, his theories leave a lot to be desired. He takes enormous leaps with basically no evidence at all. On the other hand, I'm loving the Oxygen documentary series. This show has basically changed how I see the case. Keep up the good work guys!

    I was a little confused because you already had Maura Murray episodes with Renner a couple of years ago. I like him in that he's interesting and well-spoken, however, his theories leave a lot to be desired. He takes enormous leaps with basically no evidence at all. On the other hand, I'm loving the Oxygen documentary series. This show has basically changed how I see the case. Keep up the good work guys!

  • Katie

    Katie Chicago

    I am very familiar and a little obsessed with this case. I've been watching the doc, and thought it interesting that you talked with Maggie, James, and Art. I enjoyed it. Keep up the great work!

    I am very familiar and a little obsessed with this case. I've been watching the doc, and thought it interesting that you talked with Maggie, James, and Art. I enjoyed it. Keep up the great work!

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Check this out - if you haven't already. The old Captain and I were interviewed for our "expertise" on the Maura case. This is the first article in a series. We were featured pretty heavily in the second part. Recommended reading, ha! Nic https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/further-down-the-rabbit-hole-part-1-the-disappearance_us_59dd3942e4b0df59e2613cd1

    Check this out - if you haven't already. The old Captain and I were interviewed for our "expertise" on the Maura case. This is the first article in a series. We were featured pretty heavily in the second part. Recommended reading, ha!
    Nic
    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/further-down-the-rabbit-hole-part-1-the-disappearance_us_59dd3942e4b0df59e2613cd1

  • Sandy

    Sandy

    I enjoyed the episodes. I'm grateful for all the hard work you guys put into your podcasts. Can't please everyone.

    I enjoyed the episodes. I'm grateful for all the hard work you guys put into your podcasts. Can't please everyone.

  • SB

    SB

    Great shows. I have wanted to read Renner's book since it was released and purposely avoided anything to do with this case until I read it, because I wanted to approach it with fresh eyes. After finishing his book I think the explanation is very easy. I don't say this as a laymen, both my parents were criminal investigators, and I had the opportunity to review this case with two detectives who also read the book. I got very little push back with my ultimate conclusion. James Renner did a fantastic job with his book, and although we probably don't agree on everything, he did a fantastic job of pulling a lot of threads. Also, collectively, many others were clearly helpful in contributing as well. When looking at this case, I wanted to find a conclusion that had the most explanatory scope. That is to say, it does the best job of addressing all of the features of the case we do know. In my opinion, Maura Murray had a mental break, she left work, packed up her apartment, called out of class, pulled out cash for liquor, and set off to kill herself. Let's not forget that because of her most recent accident in her father's car, she was likely to be cited and charged with reckless driving, thereby reinstating her felony fraud charges. Couple this with her family problems and pressures, I think it is reasonable to question her mental state. I believe Maura left town with the intent on killing herself. I think she stopped at the liquor store and bought enough liquor to pass out, as her car ran with a rag she stuffed in the tail pipe. This scenario best explains the amount of liquor Maura bought (it wasn't for 2, but for one to be blackout drunk), the rag in the tail pipe, the missing hour of drive time, and perhaps even the accident. I believe Maura probably parked her car somewhere, drank a considerable amount of alcohol and hoped the rag she put in the tailpipe would eventually lead to carbon monoxide poisoning. When it did not, she then proceeded to drive her car toward the Mountain, however due to the alcohol intake, (and possibly the mild carbon monoxide), she lost control of the car and wrecked. Rather than deal with police, or the school bus driver, she set off on foot where she eventually either died in the elements, or possibly jumped off the bridge into the water. The same bridge the old man drove James too in the opening part of his book, and suggested that is where Maura ended up. The only part this theory does not explain is the location of her body. However, in Renner's book, the search for Maura uncovered the body of another hiker who went missing years earlier. So clearly, this part of the state was isolated enough a person could go missing and never be found for quite some time. If she jumped into the icy waters, off a bridge, then all bets are off where she would wash up, if ever. There are so many cases where hikers just simply vanish (reference David Paulides, Missing 411). The open woods are dangerous and it is very easy to get in trouble quickly, add alcohol to the mix, and it is even easier. Not being found despite a massive search is also not terribly uncommon, again reference Paulides. The reality is, Maura was not very good at getting away with things. She could not even steal a candy bar from West Point without being caught. Also, she was caught the few times she tried to use other people's credit cards to buy pizza. The idea that this same person, could somehow, pull off the perfect disappearance, or just so happen to plan her "tandem escape" with a murderer is a reach. If Maura was setting off to escape, possibly long-term, a 60% chance according to Renner, why then would she bother going to a liquor store, and establishing a time line? You would want as little evidence of your departure as possible. Maura's own father has even hinted at this reality, by stating, according to Renner, essentially, "my daughter is up on that mountain dead and naked." He knows this is the most likely explanation, he knows deep down why the rag was in the tail pipe, his "smoke screen" and misdirection, is just his best attempt at trying to project that family image, that all so important family image. Deep down he knows his daughter was troubled, and he knows she probably killed herself. Now someone just needs to do some hiking and find that body. Also, there was a large article written about how unreliable scent dogs can be, so I know some people will try to object by saying the dogs would have tracked her, not always the case. It is very easy to get side tracked on all the theories and players, but the most simple solution is probably the best. Some of the other theories require one to multiply the variables beyond necessity. It defies Occam's Razor, the theory I have put forward, has the best explanatory scope for most of the evidence.

    Great shows.

    I have wanted to read Renner's book since it was released and purposely avoided anything to do with this case until I read it, because I wanted to approach it with fresh eyes. After finishing his book I think the explanation is very easy. I don't say this as a laymen, both my parents were criminal investigators, and I had the opportunity to review this case with two detectives who also read the book. I got very little push back with my ultimate conclusion.

    James Renner did a fantastic job with his book, and although we probably don't agree on everything, he did a fantastic job of pulling a lot of threads. Also, collectively, many others were clearly helpful in contributing as well.

    When looking at this case, I wanted to find a conclusion that had the most explanatory scope. That is to say, it does the best job of addressing all of the features of the case we do know. In my opinion, Maura Murray had a mental break, she left work, packed up her apartment, called out of class, pulled out cash for liquor, and set off to kill herself. Let's not forget that because of her most recent accident in her father's car, she was likely to be cited and charged with reckless driving, thereby reinstating her felony fraud charges. Couple this with her family problems and pressures, I think it is reasonable to question her mental state.

    I believe Maura left town with the intent on killing herself. I think she stopped at the liquor store and bought enough liquor to pass out, as her car ran with a rag she stuffed in the tail pipe. This scenario best explains the amount of liquor Maura bought (it wasn't for 2, but for one to be blackout drunk), the rag in the tail pipe, the missing hour of drive time, and perhaps even the accident.

    I believe Maura probably parked her car somewhere, drank a considerable amount of alcohol and hoped the rag she put in the tailpipe would eventually lead to carbon monoxide poisoning. When it did not, she then proceeded to drive her car toward the Mountain, however due to the alcohol intake, (and possibly the mild carbon monoxide), she lost control of the car and wrecked. Rather than deal with police, or the school bus driver, she set off on foot where she eventually either died in the elements, or possibly jumped off the bridge into the water. The same bridge the old man drove James too in the opening part of his book, and suggested that is where Maura ended up.

    The only part this theory does not explain is the location of her body. However, in Renner's book, the search for Maura uncovered the body of another hiker who went missing years earlier. So clearly, this part of the state was isolated enough a person could go missing and never be found for quite some time. If she jumped into the icy waters, off a bridge, then all bets are off where she would wash up, if ever. There are so many cases where hikers just simply vanish (reference David Paulides, Missing 411). The open woods are dangerous and it is very easy to get in trouble quickly, add alcohol to the mix, and it is even easier. Not being found despite a massive search is also not terribly uncommon, again reference Paulides.

    The reality is, Maura was not very good at getting away with things. She could not even steal a candy bar from West Point without being caught. Also, she was caught the few times she tried to use other people's credit cards to buy pizza. The idea that this same person, could somehow, pull off the perfect disappearance, or just so happen to plan her "tandem escape" with a murderer is a reach. If Maura was setting off to escape, possibly long-term, a 60% chance according to Renner, why then would she bother going to a liquor store, and establishing a time line? You would want as little evidence of your departure as possible. Maura's own father has even hinted at this reality, by stating, according to Renner, essentially, "my daughter is up on that mountain dead and naked." He knows this is the most likely explanation, he knows deep down why the rag was in the tail pipe, his "smoke screen" and misdirection, is just his best attempt at trying to project that family image, that all so important family image. Deep down he knows his daughter was troubled, and he knows she probably killed herself. Now someone just needs to do some hiking and find that body.

    Also, there was a large article written about how unreliable scent dogs can be, so I know some people will try to object by saying the dogs would have tracked her, not always the case.

    It is very easy to get side tracked on all the theories and players, but the most simple solution is probably the best. Some of the other theories require one to multiply the variables beyond necessity. It defies Occam's Razor, the theory I have put forward, has the best explanatory scope for most of the evidence.

  • Troy

    Troy Parts unknown

    You guys do realize that they covered this before,right? I don't understand how you could be lost

    You guys do realize that they covered this before,right? I don't understand how you could be lost

  • Jimmy

    Jimmy Parts Unknown

    2 points I found. 1. Many ATMs only let you get $20 intervals so leaving $16 in her account isn't off at all. She probably just couldn't get it out from an ATM. 2. With the tandem driver theory, assuming it is someone she knows, has anybody compared missing person reports from that time? If the two of them up and moved to canada under false identities the other person should be missing too.

    2 points I found.
    1. Many ATMs only let you get $20 intervals so leaving $16 in her account isn't off at all. She probably just couldn't get it out from an ATM.

    2. With the tandem driver theory, assuming it is someone she knows, has anybody compared missing person reports from that time? If the two of them up and moved to canada under false identities the other person should be missing too.

  • Anonymous

    Anonymous

    Love TCG usually and I have no objection to a change of format from time to time, but this week's episodes assume that you know all about the case before you start. I know nothing about it and don't have any access to the Oxygen channel, so I was left going "Who? What? Why didn't they..? WHY do they think her dad might know something? WHAT $4000??...etc"

    Love TCG usually and I have no objection to a change of format from time to time, but this week's episodes assume that you know all about the case before you start. I know nothing about it and don't have any access to the Oxygen channel, so I was left going "Who? What? Why didn't they..? WHY do they think her dad might know something? WHAT $4000??...etc"

  • lawbster

    lawbster Dubai

    Wanted to thank you for the podcast with James Renner, Maggie Freleng and Art - I had listened to your previous discussions with James Renner and had already watched the docu-series. The rehash with the contributors was a great answer to a lot of the questions I had while I was watching the show. I hope Maggie and Art will do a follow-up - even if it's only one episode to answer the unanswered question that ended this first series.

    Wanted to thank you for the podcast with James Renner, Maggie Freleng and Art - I had listened to your previous discussions with James Renner and had already watched the docu-series. The rehash with the contributors was a great answer to a lot of the questions I had while I was watching the show. I hope Maggie and Art will do a follow-up - even if it's only one episode to answer the unanswered question that ended this first series.

  • Didi

    Didi

    This was a chore to finish. The Renner guy was throwing ideas with very little basis and the journalist took more time complaining about how people were being mean to her. At least when the host throw in their own speculation as to what might have happened, they break it down step by step to reason it.

    This was a chore to finish. The Renner guy was throwing ideas with very little basis and the journalist took more time complaining about how people were being mean to her. At least when the host throw in their own speculation as to what might have happened, they break it down step by step to reason it.

  • B

    B Madison, WI

    I think this would have made a better bonus episode, letting people know that this is more of an "update" than an actual case from start to finish. I know a lot about the case and have read Renner's book and it didn't really flow well for me either. It didn't really shed any light on anything that hasn't been talked about before. Yes Troy, they've covered this case before but Renner was a year ago and the original episodes were a year and a half ago; you can't assume everyone has listened to every episode. So it can be easily confusing to step into this episode with no previous knowledge. Regardless of my complaints, it's still great to see you guys venture out into new territory and it's great that you have contacts within the true crime world.

    I think this would have made a better bonus episode, letting people know that this is more of an "update" than an actual case from start to finish. I know a lot about the case and have read Renner's book and it didn't really flow well for me either. It didn't really shed any light on anything that hasn't been talked about before.

    Yes Troy, they've covered this case before but Renner was a year ago and the original episodes were a year and a half ago; you can't assume everyone has listened to every episode. So it can be easily confusing to step into this episode with no previous knowledge.

    Regardless of my complaints, it's still great to see you guys venture out into new territory and it's great that you have contacts within the true crime world.

  • Aspen

    Aspen Peterborough NH

    Loved getting a little follow up on Maura from you guys. Super interesting. Of course I didn’t agree with all that was said by Renner, etc., but man was it interesting to hear from people so involved with the case. For you folks who were confused I totally get it. If I hadn’t both listened to TCG’s coverage as well as watched and read about Maura I’d have been confused too. I recommend looking up the episodes Nic and the Captain did on Maura and then re-listening to these latest! Xoxoxoxox

    Loved getting a little follow up on Maura from you guys. Super interesting. Of course I didn’t agree with all that was said by Renner, etc., but man was it interesting to hear from people so involved with the case.

    For you folks who were confused I totally get it. If I hadn’t both listened to TCG’s coverage as well as watched and read about Maura I’d have been confused too. I recommend looking up the episodes Nic and the Captain did on Maura and then re-listening to these latest!

    Xoxoxoxox

  • Hume Man

    Hume Man Iowa

    Why the fascination with this case?

    Why the fascination with this case?

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Hume Man - this case is not for everyone. Some people find this case extremely boring. Others like myself get lost in all of the what ifs. This case has so many scenarios where Maura did something or didn't do something and then each time you have to ask yourself - well was that on purpose and if so how does it relate to her disappearance, if at all. Also the picked up or abducted by a stranger theory cannot be ruled out, that alone is reason to dive into this thing. Check out our old Maura Murray episodes and you'll get it. Cheers H-Man! Nic

    Hume Man - this case is not for everyone. Some people find this case extremely boring. Others like myself get lost in all of the what ifs. This case has so many scenarios where Maura did something or didn't do something and then each time you have to ask yourself - well was that on purpose and if so how does it relate to her disappearance, if at all. Also the picked up or abducted by a stranger theory cannot be ruled out, that alone is reason to dive into this thing. Check out our old Maura Murray episodes and you'll get it.
    Cheers H-Man!
    Nic

  • Mike

    Mike Ohio

    Here is my opinion on the episode. I have a few thoughts. First the whole interview with Maggy and Art. Is Maggy the next Dan Rather or Keith Morrison No. However I give her credit getting a show on Oxygen it's more than most can say. Art is a professional and I had seen him before on a show and was the same on that show. Maggy comes off a little brash or arrogant and combine that with some lovefest compliments to Renner and it's definitely going to stir the pot of the viewers and a flood of negative comments are going to be said. As far as Renner goes he is an author. Being an author you know two things are definitely going to happen. The first one is they will push their theory or idea of the case. That is what an author does you have to take a stand on certain things and he does that. The other is he wants to sell books. That is his profession and how he makes money. What sales books in America? Controversy . The more people are talking about him negatively or positively it's better for him. More coverage means more books sold which means he can write more books. So I don't mind him being a bit of a shit stirrer. I know Nick and The Captain have invested quite a few episodes into this case but I'm okay with it. I prefer this any day over episodes about Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy , Jon Bonet Ramsey, Casey Anthony , Tupac etc. Yeah this case has a lot of press but at least it's not something that 100's of shows have covered and 100's of books have been written about it. It's not a subject where there is nothing new to offer like those for mentioned cases. As far as theories on the case I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I don't believe Maura Murray is alive. I believe something bad happened. I don't believe she ran away. I don't believe she was going to kill herself. Lets drive 4 hours to the middle of nowhere to kill yourself I doubt it. She could have bought some booze and did it in her room. The whole tandem driver thing I'm not sure of that either. I'd like to know who the driver was and if they killed Maura they did a damn good job of hiding the body and covering it up for being most likely a first and only time killer. What I think potentially happened is Butch Atwood offered her a ride. After Maura refused and gave the bullshit AAA story I think she knew Butch knew there was no cell phone reception up there. She saw the bus so she knew he was local and she also knew being a bus driver he would have some obligation to call 911. I don't think she wanted to run into Law Enforcement in the current circumstance. I think that made her a bit desperate to get out of that spot. So I think she took the next ride she could find. Now I know the chances of the next car being a killer are remote however it might have been somebody who picked her up and as they could tell she might have been drinking or wasn't from the area it turned into something sexually motivated and went bad from there that's my guess.

    Here is my opinion on the episode. I have a few thoughts. First the whole interview with Maggy and Art. Is Maggy the next Dan Rather or Keith Morrison No. However I give her credit getting a show on Oxygen it's more than most can say. Art is a professional and I had seen him before on a show and was the same on that show. Maggy comes off a little brash or arrogant and combine that with some lovefest compliments to Renner and it's definitely going to stir the pot of the viewers and a flood of negative comments are going to be said. As far as Renner goes he is an author. Being an author you know two things are definitely going to happen. The first one is they will push their theory or idea of the case. That is what an author does you have to take a stand on certain things and he does that. The other is he wants to sell books. That is his profession and how he makes money. What sales books in America? Controversy . The more people are talking about him negatively or positively it's better for him. More coverage means more books sold which means he can write more books. So I don't mind him being a bit of a shit stirrer. I know Nick and The Captain have invested quite a few episodes into this case but I'm okay with it. I prefer this any day over episodes about Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy , Jon Bonet Ramsey, Casey Anthony , Tupac etc. Yeah this case has a lot of press but at least it's not something that 100's of shows have covered and 100's of books have been written about it. It's not a subject where there is nothing new to offer like those for mentioned cases. As far as theories on the case I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I don't believe Maura Murray is alive. I believe something bad happened. I don't believe she ran away. I don't believe she was going to kill herself. Lets drive 4 hours to the middle of nowhere to kill yourself I doubt it. She could have bought some booze and did it in her room. The whole tandem driver thing I'm not sure of that either. I'd like to know who the driver was and if they killed Maura they did a damn good job of hiding the body and covering it up for being most likely a first and only time killer. What I think potentially happened is Butch Atwood offered her a ride. After Maura refused and gave the bullshit AAA story I think she knew Butch knew there was no cell phone reception up there. She saw the bus so she knew he was local and she also knew being a bus driver he would have some obligation to call 911. I don't think she wanted to run into Law Enforcement in the current circumstance. I think that made her a bit desperate to get out of that spot. So I think she took the next ride she could find. Now I know the chances of the next car being a killer are remote however it might have been somebody who picked her up and as they could tell she might have been drinking or wasn't from the area it turned into something sexually motivated and went bad from there that's my guess.

  • Mark

    Mark Austin

    You guys are the best, well, at least Nic is (just kidding, Cap), but I was really lost on this one. I kept thinking, OK, this is a follow-up to a case that I have no background on. I did not bother finishing because it was like turning into a movie that was 3/4 finished.

    You guys are the best, well, at least Nic is (just kidding, Cap), but I was really lost on this one. I kept thinking, OK, this is a follow-up to a case that I have no background on. I did not bother finishing because it was like turning into a movie that was 3/4 finished.

  • Tricia

    Tricia Utah

    I agree with most of the negative comments. This episode was hard to follow. A lot of the comments made by Maggie and Art seemed too inside. Maybe if you’ve seen the series you would understand. They seemed to jump around a lot as opposed to a more linear type of timeline. Maggie repeatedly interrupted Art which was rude and annoying. I definitely prefer the usual format with just Nic and The Captain. Keep up the good work.

    I agree with most of the negative comments. This episode was hard to follow. A lot of the comments made by Maggie and Art seemed too inside. Maybe if you’ve seen the series you would understand. They seemed to jump around a lot as opposed to a more linear type of timeline. Maggie repeatedly interrupted Art which was rude and annoying. I definitely prefer the usual format with just Nic and The Captain. Keep up the good work.

  • Jason

    Jason Gainesville, FL

    Just finished the two-part podcast and Oxygen's series, and my theory remains the same - that Maura was heavily intoxicated and succumbed to the elements after she ran away from the scene of the accident. My rationale is based purely on statistics and chance, and I tend to think that the most statistically probable outcome is probably what happened. Maura succumbing to the elements only requires one person, Maura. It doesn't require tandem drivers, or serial killers. It simply just requires her, and only her. To make this theory even more believable, it seems indisputable that Maura was under the influence, and quite possibly inebriated, from sleeping pills and alcohol. She had just got into an accident two days prior (also likely to be substance related), and probably felt if she got another DUI it would go on her record and jeopardize her career. So, she decided to run, but she ran, got lost, couldn't find her way back, and died from hypothermia. Those disagreeing with this theory cite two things in the case - that no footprints were found in the snow and that the scent dogs stopped in the middle of the road and did not enter the woods. As for the footprints, it definitely would not be out of the realm of possibilities if this tiny police department simply missed the prints. As for the dogs, they weren't deployed until 36 hours after she likely died, which means that either wild animals could have gotten to Maura, or the dogs just weren't able to get the scent after 36 hours. How many cases do we know where dogs were deployed, found nothing, but then human remains turn up in the same area years after the search? My guess is that this is what will happen in this case. Someone is going to stumble across a bone or a piece of clothing or something.

    Just finished the two-part podcast and Oxygen's series, and my theory remains the same - that Maura was heavily intoxicated and succumbed to the elements after she ran away from the scene of the accident. My rationale is based purely on statistics and chance, and I tend to think that the most statistically probable outcome is probably what happened. Maura succumbing to the elements only requires one person, Maura. It doesn't require tandem drivers, or serial killers. It simply just requires her, and only her. To make this theory even more believable, it seems indisputable that Maura was under the influence, and quite possibly inebriated, from sleeping pills and alcohol. She had just got into an accident two days prior (also likely to be substance related), and probably felt if she got another DUI it would go on her record and jeopardize her career. So, she decided to run, but she ran, got lost, couldn't find her way back, and died from hypothermia. Those disagreeing with this theory cite two things in the case - that no footprints were found in the snow and that the scent dogs stopped in the middle of the road and did not enter the woods. As for the footprints, it definitely would not be out of the realm of possibilities if this tiny police department simply missed the prints. As for the dogs, they weren't deployed until 36 hours after she likely died, which means that either wild animals could have gotten to Maura, or the dogs just weren't able to get the scent after 36 hours. How many cases do we know where dogs were deployed, found nothing, but then human remains turn up in the same area years after the search? My guess is that this is what will happen in this case. Someone is going to stumble across a bone or a piece of clothing or something.

  • Jake

    Jake Washington

    [quote=Todd] I am having an issue with the "tandem driver" theory. At least a wanted "tandem driver". If Maura and another friendly person were driving to a location as tandem drivers, why did the dogs lose her scent 100 - 200 yards from the accident scene? If she wrecked and had a friendly tandem driver close behind, wouldn't she have simply got out of her car and waited 30 seconds or a minute until that friendly tandem driver reached her and then got in the car? Why start walking if you know a ride is seconds/minutes behind you? Just something that was bothering me. [/quote] TODD, I think that if I was under the influence of anything after a car wreck, and there was a tandem driver, I would walk away from the scene due to anxiousness, fear of police coming and myself getting in trouble, and the fact that leaving an accident like that is illegal so anyone watching could have gotten the plates of the friend to help. Think its okay the dogs stopped a bit out. CAP AND NIC, Please at least give the crowd a wikipedia summary of what your discussing. Came here to see if I was the only one missing something and wasn't. I don't think you did your guests justice because so many tuned out after finding out you weren't telling what happened, so we have no facts to compare their thoughts with etc. I think their voices would have been much stronger if this was a 3 parter with the first describing everything. Keep up the good work!

    Todd wrote:

    I am having an issue with the "tandem driver" theory. At least a wanted "tandem driver". If Maura and another friendly person were driving to a location as tandem drivers, why did the dogs lose her scent 100 - 200 yards from the accident scene? If she wrecked and had a friendly tandem driver close behind, wouldn't she have simply got out of her car and waited 30 seconds or a minute until that friendly tandem driver reached her and then got in the car? Why start walking if you know a ride is seconds/minutes behind you? Just something that was bothering me.

    TODD,
    I think that if I was under the influence of anything after a car wreck, and there was a tandem driver, I would walk away from the scene due to anxiousness, fear of police coming and myself getting in trouble, and the fact that leaving an accident like that is illegal so anyone watching could have gotten the plates of the friend to help. Think its okay the dogs stopped a bit out.

    CAP AND NIC,
    Please at least give the crowd a wikipedia summary of what your discussing. Came here to see if I was the only one missing something and wasn't. I don't think you did your guests justice because so many tuned out after finding out you weren't telling what happened, so we have no facts to compare their thoughts with etc. I think their voices would have been much stronger if this was a 3 parter with the first describing everything.
    Keep up the good work!

  • Amanda

    Amanda Suburbs of CLE

    I just wanted to add a thought i had. Perhaps if Maura was pregnant she could have been trying to isolate herself to induce a spontaneous abortion. Which could explain why she had birth control pills. I think it is likely she killed her self or someone did. Im not sure why everyone is complaining about these episodes. I really liked them, but i can see how you'd be confused if you hadn't listened to the previous shows you guys had done. But who does that? What kind of true crime garage fans are you?!

    I just wanted to add a thought i had. Perhaps if Maura was pregnant she could have been trying to isolate herself to induce a spontaneous abortion. Which could explain why she had birth control pills. I think it is likely she killed her self or someone did.
    Im not sure why everyone is complaining about these episodes. I really liked them, but i can see how you'd be confused if you hadn't listened to the previous shows you guys had done. But who does that? What kind of true crime garage fans are you?!

  • Tezra

    Tezra Arkansas

    Am I the only one questioning the track coach Haase? Renner states that he uncovered the affair between them and that she had accompanied him to the cabin she was thought to be traveling to the night she disappeared. Why hasn't he been discussed or questioned? Renner also states that he called and asked the people in charge of the cabin about random names, Haase being one of them and that was the only one they recognized. It was also stated she would have known the code due to this affair and rendezvous with him there making it easy for her to return. Again I ask why hasn't he been questioned and why wasn't that discussed? Seems like an obvious next step to at least find more information...just a thought.

    Am I the only one questioning the track coach Haase? Renner states that he uncovered the affair between them and that she had accompanied him to the cabin she was thought to be traveling to the night she disappeared. Why hasn't he been discussed or questioned? Renner also states that he called and asked the people in charge of the cabin about random names, Haase being one of them and that was the only one they recognized. It was also stated she would have known the code due to this affair and rendezvous with him there making it easy for her to return. Again I ask why hasn't he been questioned and why wasn't that discussed? Seems like an obvious next step to at least find more information...just a thought.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Terra, You are not. We probably should have re-released our old Maura Murray shows before putting these shows out. However we are still pod-babies, maybe toddlers by now, we didn't think anyone would listen. We out right said he looks very suspicious. Cheers, Pod-Tod Nic

    Terra,
    You are not. We probably should have re-released our old Maura Murray shows before putting these shows out. However we are still pod-babies, maybe toddlers by now, we didn't think anyone would listen. We out right said he looks very suspicious.
    Cheers,
    Pod-Tod Nic

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Should have read Tezra- I wish auto correct would ignore names. Nic

    Should have read Tezra- I wish auto correct would ignore names.
    Nic

  • Trishatru

    Trishatru

    Hi TCG! Here is how this listener would like to respond regarding "being confused" by this podcast. I binged the entire Oxygen series the next weekend, started listening to Tim and Lance's MMM podcasts and some of their Crawlspace podcasts, I went back and found and watched the Disappeared Episode about Maura, and just down loaded "True Crime Addict" last night. WHO's the real True Crime Addict NOW?! HA HA Just thought you might like to know that even though this wasn't my favorite TCG podcast it did lead me to supporting the efforts of everyone featured. Oddly enough, Maura went missing on my birthday and I was living in NH at that time and my work travels would take me to the area where she went missing occasionally. I moved away in May of 2004 but this case still fascinates me. After listening to so many different opinions I still go back to the thought that she was picked up by someone closer to her own age than Butch Atwood and was killed either accidentally or was murdered. That whole A frame house with the two brothers that was brought up (but never resolved) on the Oxygen series is also something I would hear more from Maggie and Art on. You guys are still my favorite podcast! Have you covered the Kendrick Johnson case in older shows? Happy Thanksgiving to all, T

    Hi TCG!
    Here is how this listener would like to respond regarding "being confused" by this podcast. I binged the entire Oxygen series the next weekend, started listening to Tim and Lance's MMM podcasts and some of their Crawlspace podcasts, I went back and found and watched the Disappeared Episode about Maura, and just down loaded "True Crime Addict" last night. WHO's the real True Crime Addict NOW?! HA HA
    Just thought you might like to know that even though this wasn't my favorite TCG podcast it did lead me to supporting the efforts of everyone featured.
    Oddly enough, Maura went missing on my birthday and I was living in NH at that time and my work travels would take me to the area where she went missing occasionally. I moved away in May of 2004 but this case still fascinates me. After listening to so many different opinions I still go back to the thought that she was picked up by someone closer to her own age than Butch Atwood and was killed either accidentally or was murdered. That whole A frame house with the two brothers that was brought up (but never resolved) on the Oxygen series is also something I would hear more from Maggie and Art on.
    You guys are still my favorite podcast!
    Have you covered the Kendrick Johnson case in older shows?
    Happy Thanksgiving to all,
    T

  • Jennyfromdahpahk

    Jennyfromdahpahk San Marcos, TX

    Trishatru I am right there with you. I initially skipped this episode, knowing it was on the old episodes list and that I needed some background before I could listen, but continued with my TCG bingeing. When I got to the end of the free episodes I too moved on to Lance and Tim's MMM podcast, which I am deep in the midst of as I type this. I don't necessarily understand all the criticism against Nic and The Captain, they work hard on their research to feed our "addiction", was it too much to ask that we do a little research ourselves if we wanted clarity? Like everyone who has delved into this case my theories have changed over and over again, but I'm currently leaning in the direction that this was a planned escape to start a new life because she was pregnant and did not want Bill or anyone else to try and claim custody of the child. Nic and The Cap, I sincerely thank you for the work you do. Are there other true crime podcasts out there? Yes. But I found you first, and like young first love, all others will be compared to you. You guys will always be my favorite! Hope you both had a wonderful holiday and looking forward to the next episode!

    Trishatru I am right there with you. I initially skipped this episode, knowing it was on the old episodes list and that I needed some background before I could listen, but continued with my TCG bingeing. When I got to the end of the free episodes I too moved on to Lance and Tim's MMM podcast, which I am deep in the midst of as I type this. I don't necessarily understand all the criticism against Nic and The Captain, they work hard on their research to feed our "addiction", was it too much to ask that we do a little research ourselves if we wanted clarity?
    Like everyone who has delved into this case my theories have changed over and over again, but I'm currently leaning in the direction that this was a planned escape to start a new life because she was pregnant and did not want Bill or anyone else to try and claim custody of the child.
    Nic and The Cap, I sincerely thank you for the work you do. Are there other true crime podcasts out there? Yes. But I found you first, and like young first love, all others will be compared to you. You guys will always be my favorite! Hope you both had a wonderful holiday and looking forward to the next episode!

  • Amy

    Amy NJ

    I should’ve known the series on Oxygen was going to be a bust! Love the detective guy. Saw what he did with the Alcatraz cases. Love it. This one built you up for nothing. It’s good that they are reopening the case, but your telling me they couldn’t find two bothers that lived in town that all the rumors in that small town was about? Started listening to your podcast stopped and watched the documentary. Now I’m back to your podcast. I kinda with Maggie wouldn’t have said as much as she did regarding the process. She kinda made it feel less authentic . They should’ve just had the detective handle it. Any hoot! Love you guys

    I should’ve known the series on Oxygen was going to be a bust! Love the detective guy. Saw what he did with the Alcatraz cases. Love it. This one built you up for nothing. It’s good that they are reopening the case, but your telling me they couldn’t find two bothers that lived in town that all the rumors in that small town was about? Started listening to your podcast stopped and watched the documentary. Now I’m back to your podcast. I kinda with Maggie wouldn’t have said as much as she did regarding the process. She kinda made it feel less authentic . They should’ve just had the detective handle it. Any hoot! Love you guys

  • Amy

    Amy NJ

    And we call the book guy an idiot because he implied that the father sexually abused her didn’t he? He implied she was pregnant and running away and that the family is hiding something. To me that’s just wrong. He had no evidence of that. If he did I sure didn’t see it neither did the Oxygen series

    And we call the book guy an idiot because he implied that the father sexually abused her didn’t he? He implied she was pregnant and running away and that the family is hiding something. To me that’s just wrong. He had no evidence of that. If he did I sure didn’t see it neither did the Oxygen series

  • Barbara B.

    Barbara B.

    As someone that lives in New England I have always had a fascination with the MM case. I really enjoyed Renner's book and like his theories. This is a little personal, but I used to have an eating disorder. And I always thought, based on pictures alone, that Maura had one too. It appears that her weight fluctuated often. I believe it came out that she had bulimia but I don't hear people talk about it too much. Anyway, it's a take one to know one deal for me. That with the sports and pressure in her life, I will always believe the eating disorder thought, even though I have no proof. There was a period in my life where I thought about suicide. I never acted in it but the thoughts were there often. This was brought on by depression and my disorder. My gut instinct with the MM case has always been that she was planning to kill herself but then got in the car accident and from that point she was abducted and murdered. A crime of opportunity. Someone once mentioned that they thought her car accidents were unsuccessful suicide attempts. I think that is a very interesting theory. Anyway, sorry for opening up but I wanted to share my thoughts. I do think the coach she was having an affair with is an interesting angle. Renner's book has swayed my opinion a little bit from my original theory to that. I do hope someday this case is solved or they at least find her body. I am afraid though it will never be solved.

    As someone that lives in New England I have always had a fascination with the MM case. I really enjoyed Renner's book and like his theories.
    This is a little personal, but I used to have an eating disorder. And I always thought, based on pictures alone, that Maura had one too. It appears that her weight fluctuated often. I believe it came out that she had bulimia but I don't hear people talk about it too much. Anyway, it's a take one to know one deal for me. That with the sports and pressure in her life, I will always believe the eating disorder thought, even though I have no proof.
    There was a period in my life where I thought about suicide. I never acted in it but the thoughts were there often. This was brought on by depression and my disorder. My gut instinct with the MM case has always been that she was planning to kill herself but then got in the car accident and from that point she was abducted and murdered. A crime of opportunity.
    Someone once mentioned that they thought her car accidents were unsuccessful suicide attempts. I think that is a very interesting theory.
    Anyway, sorry for opening up but I wanted to share my thoughts. I do think the coach she was having an affair with is an interesting angle. Renner's book has swayed my opinion a little bit from my original theory to that.
    I do hope someday this case is solved or they at least find her body. I am afraid though it will never be solved.

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    Thanks Barbara! That thought has been shared by others. There's a bit of a fringe theory that maybe MM had an eating disorder that led to more tragic things. Nic

    Thanks Barbara!
    That thought has been shared by others. There's a bit of a fringe theory that maybe MM had an eating disorder that led to more tragic things.
    Nic

  • John

    John Vt

    Atwood murdered Maura Murray on his bus, when he surreptitiously went looking for her, she was already on the bus with his permission (to avoid a dui). He dumped her body when he surreptitiously went looking for her why. NH police should be prosecuted for malfeasance.

    Atwood murdered Maura Murray on his bus, when he surreptitiously went looking for her, she was already on the bus with his permission (to avoid a dui). He dumped her body when he surreptitiously went looking for her why. NH police should be prosecuted for malfeasance.

Add comment