Chelsea Small //////

56 comments

  • Tommy
    Tommy Belleville, Michigan
    Perhaps this is premature since I haven't listened to pt. 2 yet... Don't see gloves Touched many things, not just gate. Despite what one of the detectives said, she was a witness whether she hit alarm or not and would have been able to observe getaway unless confined... Silencer tells me premeditated intent to kill. There are clearly some documents possible manila envelope with stamps on it or another white piece of paper envelopethat he puts in the bag... he tightens & shakes bag to get it/them to slide down/in, just before he exits the door. This tells me he was after specific docs and knew when to strike.

    Perhaps this is premature since I haven't listened to pt. 2 yet...

    Don't see gloves

    Touched many things, not just gate.

    Despite what one of the detectives said, she was a witness whether she hit alarm or not and would have been able to observe getaway unless confined... Silencer tells me premeditated intent to kill.

    There are clearly some documents possible manila envelope with stamps on it or another white piece of paper envelopethat he puts in the bag... he tightens & shakes bag to get it/them to slide down/in, just before he exits the door. This tells me he was after specific docs and knew when to strike.

  • Tommy
    Tommy Belleville, Michigan
    Adding to my other post... He seemed to know exactly where to find these documents... called ahead perhaps? Or very familiar with where they'd be. I94 is about :30 seconds to the North if you make the light at Ecorse Rd. which is another very long and heavily traveled route with multiple access points to freeways.

    Adding to my other post...

    He seemed to know exactly where to find these documents... called ahead perhaps? Or very familiar with where they'd be.

    I94 is about :30 seconds to the North if you make the light at Ecorse Rd. which is another very long and heavily traveled route with multiple access points to freeways.

  • K Alex
    K Alex MA
    The .45 caliber was interesting detail in relation to the use of a suppressor. At a very high level there are two ways that a firearm makes noise: (i) the noise of expanding gases when the bullet leaves the barrel (this is what a suppressor moderates), and (ii) the hypersonic boom when the bullet breaks the sound barrier by traveling faster than 1,125 feet per second which most bullets do. However, a standard 230 grain .45 bullet does not reach such supersonic speeds at only ~830 fps and is therefore quieter when suppressed because there's sonic boom to worry about. The difference is quite noticeable when used with a suppressor; a really loud crack versus a much quieter snapping sound. In short, the gunman knew exactly what he was doing to reduce the report of the weapon to a minimum.

    The .45 caliber was interesting detail in relation to the use of a suppressor. At a very high level there are two ways that a firearm makes noise: (i) the noise of expanding gases when the bullet leaves the barrel (this is what a suppressor moderates), and (ii) the hypersonic boom when the bullet breaks the sound barrier by traveling faster than 1,125 feet per second which most bullets do.

    However, a standard 230 grain .45 bullet does not reach such supersonic speeds at only ~830 fps and is therefore quieter when suppressed because there's sonic boom to worry about. The difference is quite noticeable when used with a suppressor; a really loud crack versus a much quieter snapping sound. In short, the gunman knew exactly what he was doing to reduce the report of the weapon to a minimum.

  • Tom
    Tom Tennessee
    IMG. It looks like he is wearing shoes covers! This is a hit. This guy is either just experimenting with methods, like the Ice Man. Or was paid by someone to take her out.

    IMG. It looks like he is wearing shoes covers! This is a hit. This guy is either just experimenting with methods, like the Ice Man. Or was paid by someone to take her out.

  • Alexandra
    Alexandra Boston
    Great episodes!! I have never heard of this case before today, so I totally agree it needs more publicity. This is a bizarre takeaway from the security footage, I know that you both feel he may be wearing a uniform. When I was listening, I totally agreed. After checking out the footage- I think he is in full disguise, playing the part of something that he would never be/wear in his daily life. To me, it looks like he's wearing some type of skateboarding shoe with a gum sole and a working man's pant- like a pair of Dickies. This makes me think he is playing the part. Perhaps he is a disgruntled customer- has a son who skateboards or some other- and wanted to get revenge. Say he works as a lawyer or has some other occupation where he dresses normally. Maybe his train of thought was, if I dress up like my son, everyone will assume I'm younger and this will throw them off. That backs up your thoughts that maybe the hair is also a wig and the hat is keeping it on. I feel like if he looked like this all the time/was a local, he would have been found by now. I think it's clear from his rounded shoulders and saggy neck skin that he is not 20 years old. I have no idea about the jacket or the hat. But, I really hope this case gets solved. Shoe link (for example): http://www.vans.com/shop/12-oz-canvas-authentic-marshmallow-gum?utm_id=go_cmp-191532173_adg-26531766893_ad-95627217173_pla-807607725069_dev-c_ext-_prd-Z5IWM8_VN%3A0A2Z5I%3AWM8%3A095%3AM%3A1%3A_mca-8181713_sig-CjwKCAjwwqaGBhBKEiwAMk-FtBsEh9Czo437VHxbd7fk-om1Murc4W_lmx0t-zF1ZcoZAZr5TFY8khoCpWEQAvD_BwE&utm_source=google&radscid=191532173&gclid=CjwKCAjwwqaGBhBKEiwAMk-FtBsEh9Czo437VHxbd7fk-om1Murc4W_lmx0t-zF1ZcoZAZr5TFY8khoCpWEQAvD_BwE

    Great episodes!! I have never heard of this case before today, so I totally agree it needs more publicity.

    This is a bizarre takeaway from the security footage, I know that you both feel he may be wearing a uniform. When I was listening, I totally agreed. After checking out the footage- I think he is in full disguise, playing the part of something that he would never be/wear in his daily life. To me, it looks like he's wearing some type of skateboarding shoe with a gum sole and a working man's pant- like a pair of Dickies.

    This makes me think he is playing the part. Perhaps he is a disgruntled customer- has a son who skateboards or some other- and wanted to get revenge. Say he works as a lawyer or has some other occupation where he dresses normally. Maybe his train of thought was, if I dress up like my son, everyone will assume I'm younger and this will throw them off. That backs up your thoughts that maybe the hair is also a wig and the hat is keeping it on. I feel like if he looked like this all the time/was a local, he would have been found by now.

    I think it's clear from his rounded shoulders and saggy neck skin that he is not 20 years old. I have no idea about the jacket or the hat. But, I really hope this case gets solved.

    Shoe link (for example): http://www.vans.com/shop/12-oz-canvas-authentic-marshmallow-gum?utm_id=go_cmp-191532173_adg-26531766893_ad-95627217173_pla-807607725069_dev-c_ext-_prd-Z5IWM8_VN%3A0A2Z5I%3AWM8%3A095%3AM%3A1%3A_mca-8181713_sig-CjwKCAjwwqaGBhBKEiwAMk-FtBsEh9Czo437VHxbd7fk-om1Murc4W_lmx0t-zF1ZcoZAZr5TFY8khoCpWEQAvD_BwE&utm_source=google&radscid=191532173&gclid=CjwKCAjwwqaGBhBKEiwAMk-FtBsEh9Czo437VHxbd7fk-om1Murc4W_lmx0t-zF1ZcoZAZr5TFY8khoCpWEQAvD_BwE

  • Jeff
    Jeff GA
    A suppressed 45 would still be 140-145 decibels. I don't understand the choice. There are calibers that are quieter without a suppressor. Suppressor crimes are extremely rare tho not necessarily due to being hard to get. It's just a general lack of purpose. There is no benefit. You can order DIY kits online and those aren't tracked in any way. Yet still not used in crimes because they do not work like the movies suggest.

    A suppressed 45 would still be 140-145 decibels. I don't understand the choice. There are calibers that are quieter without a suppressor. Suppressor crimes are extremely rare tho not necessarily due to being hard to get. It's just a general lack of purpose. There is no benefit. You can order DIY kits online and those aren't tracked in any way. Yet still not used in crimes because they do not work like the movies suggest.

  • Kara
    Kara Blanket TX
    Ok $200??? That is ridiculous! I dont buy that someone would kill someone like this, “like this level of sophistication “ for a chance of of just $200! If he was actually wanting money like a robber he wouod of shot her after robbing her and seeing if he could get all the money he could. The days, that isnt a coincidence! He knows the business some how.

    Ok $200??? That is ridiculous! I dont buy that someone would kill someone like this, “like this level of sophistication “ for a chance of of just $200! If he was actually wanting money like a robber he wouod of shot her after robbing her and seeing if he could get all the money he could. The days, that isnt a coincidence! He knows the business some how.

  • Dave
    Dave Niagara Falls
    You guys weren’t kidding when you said this guy looks very average. I believe the hat could be aTigers or Yankees hat. They put emblems on the side during the playoffs. The footwear look like steal toe tan work boots in the one picture. Also looks like he has fairly big feet maybe a 12. Definitely see the whitish gloves. He looks like a pro.Seems very calm and knows what he’s after. Must know there’s cameras and never once looks up at them. As far as the location goes. As a criminal you couldn’t pick a better location for a crime. I’ve been through this area a bunch and it’s very busy 4 lanes of traffic each direction especially at noon. Most cars are moving fast and constantly switching lanes. I 94 is right there. You could go 50 different directions to get out of there.

    You guys weren’t kidding when you said this guy looks very average. I believe the hat could be aTigers or Yankees hat. They put emblems on the side during the playoffs. The footwear look like steal toe tan work boots in the one picture. Also looks like he has fairly big feet maybe a 12. Definitely see the whitish gloves. He looks like a pro.Seems very calm and knows what he’s after. Must know there’s cameras and never once looks up at them. As far as the location goes. As a criminal you couldn’t pick a better location for a crime. I’ve been through this area a bunch and it’s very busy 4 lanes of traffic each direction especially at noon. Most cars are moving fast and constantly switching lanes. I 94 is right there. You could go 50 different directions to get out of there.

  • Ben
    Ben Private parts
    Nic, suppressors are somewhat difficult to purchase LEGALLY, as you explained, but I would like to point out that not only are they available on the black market(I would assume although I’ve never run across one) but they are also readily available and very cheap via internet purchase. “Whisper Tubes” can be bought for less than $20 online, and even though they aren’t 100% operational at time of delivery, anyone with a drill and 90seconds to spare can easily make it functional. Just wanted to throw that out there. However, I agree with your theory that the killer and the sporting good store thief are the same person, or at least directly connected. Keep up the good work guys, Provst! Salud! Cheers! Bottoms up!

    Nic, suppressors are somewhat difficult to purchase LEGALLY, as you explained, but I would like to point out that not only are they available on the black market(I would assume although I’ve never run across one) but they are also readily available and very cheap via internet purchase. “Whisper Tubes” can be bought for less than $20 online, and even though they aren’t 100% operational at time of delivery, anyone with a drill and 90seconds to spare can easily make it functional. Just wanted to throw that out there. However, I agree with your theory that the killer and the sporting good store thief are the same person, or at least directly connected. Keep up the good work guys, Provst! Salud! Cheers! Bottoms up!

  • Ben Again
    Ben Again Parts Unshown
    Is the murderer in the video possibly wearing disposable booties over his shoes/boots?

    Is the murderer in the video possibly wearing disposable booties over his shoes/boots?

  • AT
    AT NE NC
    Not heard part 2 yet so apologies if this is redundant but, thin latex gloves can leave fingerprints detectable with modern forensic methods. Latex is super thin which is one reason why it was used for so long in the medical field. Incidentally, we had a break in around the same year as this case and the deputies didn’t dust for fingerprints at all, only took a few swabs to be tested for DNA. For a murder however one would think it likely LE would try for both.

    Not heard part 2 yet so apologies if this is redundant but, thin latex gloves can leave fingerprints detectable with modern forensic methods. Latex is super thin which is one reason why it was used for so long in the medical field. Incidentally, we had a break in around the same year as this case and the deputies didn’t dust for fingerprints at all, only took a few swabs to be tested for DNA. For a murder however one would think it likely LE would try for both.

  • Ryan P
    Ryan P Parts Unknown
    They should check for missing car titles or file folders. There should be loan documentation stored online that they could use to cross reference the files at the store to see whats missing. Because that definitely appears to be some sort of a folder inside of the bag.

    They should check for missing car titles or file folders. There should be loan documentation stored online that they could use to cross reference the files at the store to see whats missing. Because that definitely appears to be some sort of a folder inside of the bag.

  • Cee Bee
    Cee Bee
    In the Jackson robbery he looks like he's channelling Anton Chigurh (comfort footwear version). Maybe his motive is pure psychopathic fantasy? Actually, those shoes (I don't see a boot heel) do evoke the sock-clad Anton. And, the calm brazenness... Or he's a lost Turpin (just saying, he's not dissimilar). Or his hair's as per when he last had a GF? Maybe Chelsea simply reminded him of someone, a mother or a love rejection, Bundyesque like. In Taylor I thought his shoes could be oversized. The shinies could be a metal clasp cap tightener and a metal belt end (hold in those now baggy pants), but less likely. I thought he might have a pillow-up-the-shirt fat man disguise, but you can't fake that dewlap in the Jackson pix, so... it's probably just the fast food coming home to roost (or a bulletproof vest). Maybe he was prepared for engagement with LE? I didn't notice the folder thing. Nice one Tommy.

    In the Jackson robbery he looks like he's channelling Anton Chigurh (comfort footwear version). Maybe his motive is pure psychopathic fantasy? Actually, those shoes (I don't see a boot heel) do evoke the sock-clad Anton. And, the calm brazenness...
    Or he's a lost Turpin (just saying, he's not dissimilar). Or his hair's as per when he last had a GF? Maybe Chelsea simply reminded him of someone, a mother or a love rejection, Bundyesque like.
    In Taylor I thought his shoes could be oversized. The shinies could be a metal clasp cap tightener and a metal belt end (hold in those now baggy pants), but less likely. I thought he might have a pillow-up-the-shirt fat man disguise, but you can't fake that dewlap in the Jackson pix, so... it's probably just the fast food coming home to roost (or a bulletproof vest). Maybe he was prepared for engagement with LE?
    I didn't notice the folder thing. Nice one Tommy.

  • Cee Bee
    Cee Bee
    PS. The cap label could be a (white) rising sun. Sometimes associated with Japanese Domestic Market vehicles. May be popular with car/motorcycle enthusiasts. Or, it could be a drop of bird poo. Has he trimmed down alot between Jackson and Taylor crimes? Lapband surgery level? Hospital records check. (Although he doesn't look thaaat different to me).

    PS. The cap label could be a (white) rising sun. Sometimes associated with Japanese Domestic Market vehicles. May be popular with car/motorcycle enthusiasts. Or, it could be a drop of bird poo.

    Has he trimmed down alot between Jackson and Taylor crimes? Lapband surgery level? Hospital records check. (Although he doesn't look thaaat different to me).

  • Jeff
    Jeff Indiana
    No way this wasn't a hit.

    No way this wasn't a hit.

  • The Corporal
    The Corporal Illinois
    This seems personal, maybe not in the sense that he knew Chelsea personally. The speed and efficiency in which he moves suggests a military background. The fact that his weapon jammed would imply probably Army (as no self respecting Marine would allow his personal weapon to be in such a state), kinda kidding about that part so don't come at me. My thought is that every military base has multiple payday loan places just outside, waiting to take advantage of young and naïve military personnel (myself included). It could be that this person or someone close to this real P.O.S. had their life ruined by a payday loan. Maybe it was a failed marriage, maybe it was a good soldier under his charge that committed suicide over being financially ruined by such an operation. Whatever his problem was, it's not about Chelsea and it's not about the money. It was about a personal vendetta against payday loan places. At least that's my ten cents.

    This seems personal, maybe not in the sense that he knew Chelsea personally. The speed and efficiency in which he moves suggests a military background. The fact that his weapon jammed would imply probably Army (as no self respecting Marine would allow his personal weapon to be in such a state), kinda kidding about that part so don't come at me. My thought is that every military base has multiple payday loan places just outside, waiting to take advantage of young and naïve military personnel (myself included). It could be that this person or someone close to this real P.O.S. had their life ruined by a payday loan. Maybe it was a failed marriage, maybe it was a good soldier under his charge that committed suicide over being financially ruined by such an operation. Whatever his problem was, it's not about Chelsea and it's not about the money. It was about a personal vendetta against payday loan places.

    At least that's my ten cents.

  • Jeremy
    Jeremy Greenville, sc
    Personally the hat looks like a new ear baseball cap. That white logo on the side is a new ear logo that’s on all of their team caps. Almost looks like a Yankees logo on the front but really hard to tell.

    Personally the hat looks like a new ear baseball cap. That white logo on the side is a new ear logo that’s on all of their team caps. Almost looks like a Yankees logo on the front but really hard to tell.

  • Michelle
    Michelle Kansas
    LOVE THIS PODCAST!!!! Thanks guys!! Come to Kansas and try Salt City Brewing Company in Hutchinson. Also I have a case I think you'd be interested in. Boy is killed by fentanyl laced pill, then videoed why he died by the one who gave him the pill. Nothing has happened to the kid. We all want something done! There is video!

    LOVE THIS PODCAST!!!! Thanks guys!! Come to Kansas and try Salt City Brewing Company in Hutchinson. Also I have a case I think you'd be interested in. Boy is killed by fentanyl laced pill, then videoed why he died by the one who gave him the pill. Nothing has happened to the kid. We all want something done! There is video!

  • Tommy
    Tommy Belleville, Michigan
    Upon further reflection... He seems to almost poses /pauses, on the way out, so the camera would capture him adjusting the bag to let the document(s) slide down in. Misdirection?

    Upon further reflection...
    He seems to almost poses /pauses, on the way out, so the camera would capture him adjusting the bag to let the document(s) slide down in.
    Misdirection?

  • SF
    SF Cheshire CT
    When the shooter is leaving he pulls the small door behind him. That’s a force of habit move. Perhaps he’s worked in another branch of this or similar business.

    When the shooter is leaving he pulls the small door behind him. That’s a force of habit move. Perhaps he’s worked in another branch of this or similar business.

  • Nicholas Macarages
    Nicholas Macarages
    First of all, hats off to you Nic for doing research regarding suppressors. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and I appreciate you doing your best to explain what a suppressor actually does and the process of purchasing one. To answer the Captain's question, no a suppressor will not make any markings on the bullet. The projectile is not supposed to make any contact with the baffles. If it does, it can cause damage to the suppressor. Suppressors are also not specific to a certain model of gun. They are caliber specific (though larger suppressors can be rated for multiple cartridges). The thread pitch on the end of the barrel is what determines what suppressor can be used on that firearm. In other words, the threads need to match. There are also quick detach mounts, but those are for rifles. I'm surprised he used a .45 because even though the rounds are subsonic a suppressed .22 is ridiculously quiet. Also, I'm not sure why investigators think the suppressor caused the malfunction. I bet since it was a .45 that it was a cheaply made 1911 which are known to jam. I cannot tell from the footage... I hope this gets solved.

    First of all, hats off to you Nic for doing research regarding suppressors. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and I appreciate you doing your best to explain what a suppressor actually does and the process of purchasing one. To answer the Captain's question, no a suppressor will not make any markings on the bullet. The projectile is not supposed to make any contact with the baffles. If it does, it can cause damage to the suppressor. Suppressors are also not specific to a certain model of gun. They are caliber specific (though larger suppressors can be rated for multiple cartridges). The thread pitch on the end of the barrel is what determines what suppressor can be used on that firearm. In other words, the threads need to match. There are also quick detach mounts, but those are for rifles. I'm surprised he used a .45 because even though the rounds are subsonic a suppressed .22 is ridiculously quiet. Also, I'm not sure why investigators think the suppressor caused the malfunction. I bet since it was a .45 that it was a cheaply made 1911 which are known to jam. I cannot tell from the footage... I hope this gets solved.

  • Ewart
    Ewart Tucson
    Thoughts: 1) I definitely think this was a planned robbery, not a hit. The perp brought a money bag because he wanted to fill it. The perp was in disguise. The perp also knew he would be alone with the clerk because customers had to be buzzed in to enter the store, meaning nobody else could enter while the robbery was taking place— hence explaining why he walked about so calmly after shooting her. I also believe he was familiar with the store by how swiftly he reached around to the opposite side of the office door and unlocked it. 2) I think he did plan on killing whoever was working, but left abruptly without a larger score because he realized she set the alarm before he shot her. Either she said as much when she saw his gun, or he discovered the alarm button when he was on the employee side of the counter. This guy was prepared to steal more, but also calculating and smart enough to know he had only minutes to escape before getting caught by the police. 3) Chelsea Small’s killer is the same guy who robbed the sporting good store. If he isn’t, than he knows the sporting goods robber. They are two very savvy criminals who are also extreme gun enthusiasts. If they are a tandem, I would look for two brothers that fit their description.

    Thoughts: 1) I definitely think this was a planned robbery, not a hit. The perp brought a money bag because he wanted to fill it. The perp was in disguise. The perp also knew he would be alone with the clerk because customers had to be buzzed in to enter the store, meaning nobody else could enter while the robbery was taking place— hence explaining why he walked about so calmly after shooting her. I also believe he was familiar with the store by how swiftly he reached around to the opposite side of the office door and unlocked it.
    2) I think he did plan on killing whoever was working, but left abruptly without a larger score because he realized she set the alarm before he shot her. Either she said as much when she saw his gun, or he discovered the alarm button when he was on the employee side of the counter. This guy was prepared to steal more, but also calculating and smart enough to know he had only minutes to escape before getting caught by the police.
    3) Chelsea Small’s killer is the same guy who robbed the sporting good store. If he isn’t, than he knows the sporting goods robber. They are two very savvy criminals who are also extreme gun enthusiasts. If they are a tandem, I would look for two brothers that fit their description.

  • Ryan P
    Ryan P Parts Unknown
    He’s a customer. I’d bet my beach house on it. AND, he’s the guy that robbed the gun shop. Surely they can cross reference previous customers for both stores. That can’t be a huge list..

    He’s a customer. I’d bet my beach house on it. AND, he’s the guy that robbed the gun shop. Surely they can cross reference previous customers for both stores. That can’t be a huge list..

  • Ed
    Ed Illinois
    Hey Nic/Captain, Have you previously spoken with Takara Schupbach? She’s replied some on the Facebook post and helped clarify a couple questions about her store’s robbery I had. I don’t believe some of the info was out previously (more on what the ‘closet’ was, clarifying the closing time differences I’ve seen, and most interestingly the alarm was played with by the guy).

    Hey Nic/Captain,

    Have you previously spoken with Takara Schupbach? She’s replied some on the Facebook post and helped clarify a couple questions about her store’s robbery I had. I don’t believe some of the info was out previously (more on what the ‘closet’ was, clarifying the closing time differences I’ve seen, and most interestingly the alarm was played with by the guy).

  • True Crime Garage
    True Crime Garage
    @ Jeremy - I agree. I think the auto correct got you. New Era makes great hats and they were getting very popular around this time as they were striking deals with some of the major sports. I'm not sure what the emblem is but if I had to place a bet I would go with Detriot Tigers Nic

    @ Jeremy - I agree. I think the auto correct got you. New Era makes great hats and they were getting very popular around this time as they were striking deals with some of the major sports. I'm not sure what the emblem is but if I had to place a bet I would go with Detriot Tigers
    Nic

  • True Crime Garage
    True Crime Garage
    @ Michelle - thank you. Please post the victim's name or email it to me. Thanks and Cheers Nic

    @ Michelle - thank you. Please post the victim's name or email it to me.
    Thanks and Cheers Nic

  • Kell
    Kell Arizona
    [Cee Bee, read Bennett & Gurin's The Dieter's Dilemma or Glen Gaesser's Big Fat Lies. Your hatred of fat people is unacceptable. Fatness is not about fast food. Meanwhile...] In the advance America footage, the killer seems to have fairly lean hips. I wonder if he looks heavier in the sporting goods robbery because he's wearing winter clothing or long johns?

    [Cee Bee, read Bennett & Gurin's The Dieter's Dilemma or Glen Gaesser's Big Fat Lies. Your hatred of fat people is unacceptable. Fatness is not about fast food. Meanwhile...] In the advance America footage, the killer seems to have fairly lean hips. I wonder if he looks heavier in the sporting goods robbery because he's wearing winter clothing or long johns?

  • Kell
    Kell Arizona
    Just checking -- are all fat people "fat fucks?" Will you now be calling all gay criminals "faggot fucks?" Are black killers going to be "nigger fucks?" Apparently you didn't get the memo. You cannot simultaneously hate fat people and be a decent human being. They are 100% mutually exclusive.

    Just checking -- are all fat people "fat fucks?" Will you now be calling all gay criminals "faggot fucks?" Are black killers going to be "nigger fucks?" Apparently you didn't get the memo. You cannot simultaneously hate fat people and be a decent human being. They are 100% mutually exclusive.

  • AT
    AT NENC
    I’ve shot a .45 with suppressor before (not mine) and though it does help muffle the sound, I think definitely someone in or maybe right around the building would register the noise. I shot outside, so it would reverberate much more if indoors it would seem. I’m not at all a firearms expert, but I wonder, if it was a local living in that town (or any metro area), I wonder where he was able to practice with suppressor in order to get used to it? If he went on a range, or at someone else’s place wouldn’t that leave a trail of winesses? Maybe LE should have released the part about the suppressor sooner, to trigger the minds of anyone who may have talked about or been seen practicing with the weapon. Then again if the town was rural he could just walk in the woods, although strangers “out in the country” get noticed pretty quickly by locals, I know! As to why a .45 over a .22 which would be quieter, maybe he doesn’t actually know a lot about firearms and he thought the .45 would be more likely to kill rather than a .22 which people “often” survive. Rabbit trail: guy where I live tried committing suicide with a .22 and only succeeded in giving himself headaches for the rest of his natural. Depends on ammo too of course. I’ll chime in with the chorus that this wasn’t a robbery. Would double the bet if it were true that killer also did the robbery.

    I’ve shot a .45 with suppressor before (not mine) and though it does help muffle the sound, I think definitely someone in or maybe right around the building would register the noise. I shot outside, so it would reverberate much more if indoors it would seem. I’m not at all a firearms expert, but I wonder, if it was a local living in that town (or any metro area), I wonder where he was able to practice with suppressor in order to get used to it? If he went on a range, or at someone else’s place wouldn’t that leave a trail of winesses? Maybe LE should have released the part about the suppressor sooner, to trigger the minds of anyone who may have talked about or been seen practicing with the weapon. Then again if the town was rural he could just walk in the woods, although strangers “out in the country” get noticed pretty quickly by locals, I know! As to why a .45 over a .22 which would be quieter, maybe he doesn’t actually know a lot about firearms and he thought the .45 would be more likely to kill rather than a .22 which people “often” survive. Rabbit trail: guy where I live tried committing suicide with a .22 and only succeeded in giving himself headaches for the rest of his natural. Depends on ammo too of course. I’ll chime in with the chorus that this wasn’t a robbery. Would double the bet if it were true that killer also did the robbery.

  • Judith
    Judith Parts Unknown
    Ryan P.--I agree! The cash was not the target.

    Ryan P.--I agree! The cash was not the target.

  • Helsey
    Helsey Oz
    After listening to these 2 episodes I went back n had another listen to the Moody massacre epp 377 ( there was nothing decent on ID) I have a question for u nic n the Captain, do u ever hear of a crime( or when researching a case) that u just shake ur head ?? I'm truly interested 🤔

    After listening to these 2 episodes I went back n had another listen to the Moody massacre epp 377 ( there was nothing decent on ID) I have a question for u nic n the Captain, do u ever hear of a crime( or when researching a case) that u just shake ur head ?? I'm truly interested 🤔

  • Christina
    Christina Colorado
    I think it was some sort of retaliation against the store and l not for the intention of robbery. He would have needed to keep her alive to get her to release wherever the majority of the cash was. He could have got more at a gas station. He also seemed like he didn’t really care about killing her and getting away quickly. So I think he was p*ssed, walked in just to F the store and anyone there up and grab whatever he saw on the way out.

    I think it was some sort of retaliation against the store and l not for the intention of robbery. He would have needed to keep her alive to get her to release wherever the majority of the cash was. He could have got more at a gas station. He also seemed like he didn’t really care about killing her and getting away quickly. So I think he was p*ssed, walked in just to F the store and anyone there up and grab whatever he saw on the way out.

  • Michael
    Michael Canyon
    The guy who stole the suppressors from Schupbach's Sporting good store in Jackson - is the same guy - no Doubt. That hair in the back gives it away.

    The guy who stole the suppressors from Schupbach's Sporting good store in Jackson - is the same guy - no Doubt. That hair in the back gives it away.

  • Mr Reaction
    Mr Reaction California
    Guys this is clearly a hired hit. He doesn’t take that much cash. He used a silencer. What murderers use silencers? Professional hired guns. He took a Manila envelope, so he was not there for money. He was there to extract vital information that his client wanted. I would do a deep background investigation into all the safety deposit boxes there. Cross reference the names against mob people or wealthy businessmen CEO types.

    Guys this is clearly a hired hit. He doesn’t take that much cash. He used a silencer. What murderers use silencers? Professional hired guns. He took a Manila envelope, so he was not there for money. He was there to extract vital information that his client wanted. I would do a deep background investigation into all the safety deposit boxes there. Cross reference the names against mob people or wealthy businessmen CEO types.

  • Brian
    Brian Maine
    I think it’s very possible he noticed her trigger the alarm and then immediately had to act fast knowing police were on the way. I don’t see it as a hit. The silencer seems like it would be a pretty intimidating sight to see and would signal to anyone a heightened sense danger and seriousness. I’m kind of surprised to hear that it is so rare to use a silencer. Immediately killing the victim after seeing the alarm triggered is less likely to draw attention with the silencer and her inability to scream for help. This gave him a few seconds to try to salvage some cash before he has to make a getaway. He saw that he was fucked and immediately had his back up plan which he probably rehearsed in his head over and over. I don’t think his calm demeanor shows he’s a seasoned hitman, just that he knew what he had to do in case things didnt go as planned. The gun store robbery could be related (2 different dudes IMO), but seems also possible the killer could have obtained a silencer in so many other illegal ways for the purpose of using specifically for this daytime robbery situation. Just a few thoughts.. love the pod

    I think it’s very possible he noticed her trigger the alarm and then immediately had to act fast knowing police were on the way. I don’t see it as a hit. The silencer seems like it would be a pretty intimidating sight to see and would signal to anyone a heightened sense danger and seriousness. I’m kind of surprised to hear that it is so rare to use a silencer. Immediately killing the victim after seeing the alarm triggered is less likely to draw attention with the silencer and her inability to scream for help. This gave him a few seconds to try to salvage some cash before he has to make a getaway. He saw that he was fucked and immediately had his back up plan which he probably rehearsed in his head over and over. I don’t think his calm demeanor shows he’s a seasoned hitman, just that he knew what he had to do in case things didnt go as planned. The gun store robbery could be related (2 different dudes IMO), but seems also possible the killer could have obtained a silencer in so many other illegal ways for the purpose of using specifically for this daytime robbery situation. Just a few thoughts.. love the pod

  • True Crime Garage
    True Crime Garage
    @ Kell - I don't think this show is for you. - Nic

    @ Kell - I don't think this show is for you.
    - Nic

  • Kat Tatum
    Kat Tatum Heck, Georgia
    Just an observation, but the "uniform" looks a bit similar to the one an armored truck delivery driver wore when he would bring funds to/pick deposits up from the store I used to work at. Could explain why he seemed to have so much knowledge about the business.

    Just an observation, but the "uniform" looks a bit similar to the one an armored truck delivery driver wore when he would bring funds to/pick deposits up from the store I used to work at. Could explain why he seemed to have so much knowledge about the business.

  • Jen
    Jen Delaware, OH
    Could those be bowling shoes? Beige leather with weird stitching and a wooden bottom would be bowling shoes or golf shoes. I agree he looks like a beer delivery man but that could also be a bowling jacket or dickies jacket with his white shirt underneath poking out. Is it possible she witnessed something or someone thought that she witnessed something and put a hit out on her? It doesn’t seem like anyone had any reason to harm her. She could been at the wrong place at the wrong time (like my personal Brian Schaffer theory). She could have been walking to her car one night, someone thought she witnessed something but she wasn’t paying attention to it so she never mentioned it to anyone. Had there been any employee theft like the LuLu Lemon case?

    Could those be bowling shoes? Beige leather with weird stitching and a wooden bottom would be bowling shoes or golf shoes. I agree he looks like a beer delivery man but that could also be a bowling jacket or dickies jacket with his white shirt underneath poking out.

    Is it possible she witnessed something or someone thought that she witnessed something and put a hit out on her? It doesn’t seem like anyone had any reason to harm her. She could been at the wrong place at the wrong time (like my personal Brian Schaffer theory). She could have been walking to her car one night, someone thought she witnessed something but she wasn’t paying attention to it so she never mentioned it to anyone. Had there been any employee theft like the LuLu Lemon case?

  • Harriet
    Harriet Hereford, UK
    I listened to TCG every week and have done since 2017 but have NEVER commented until now but I had to on this one!!! They HAVE to be the same people for one reason and one reason only (imo)- my first instinct when looking at the Small footage was ‘wow, that guy has a huge double chin relative to his weight’. Do you know what I mean, I know that most people I know of a similar build and stature to him don’t have such a massively huge chin? Then in the Jackson footage I saw the photo and was BLOWN AWAY- ok admittedly in those clothes the guy presents heavier but still a out of proportion chin for his size? I know there are lots of people with chins like this so it’s hardly conclusive but it’s such a defining feature to me. Also if the guy did lose weight in those 6 months, it makes sense to me that it would be the last weight he would lose in the Small footage. Great research done on suppressors Nic (I live in the UK so even the thought of being able to buy a gun from a shop freaks me out and I knew absolutely nothing about the purchase of any firearms equipment). I’m almost at the end of episode 2 but I’m not sure if you mentioned- I wonder if the person who was meant to be working was looked into as a possible target? I got massive professional hit vibes (mainly because the calmness reminded me of Killing Eve the TV show haha!) and if their shift change was relatively last minute I wonder if the targeted party just hadn’t had time to tell anyone yet? Who knows though!

    I listened to TCG every week and have done since 2017 but have NEVER commented until now but I had to on this one!!!

    They HAVE to be the same people for one reason and one reason only (imo)- my first instinct when looking at the Small footage was ‘wow, that guy has a huge double chin relative to his weight’. Do you know what I mean, I know that most people I know of a similar build and stature to him don’t have such a massively huge chin? Then in the Jackson footage I saw the photo and was BLOWN AWAY- ok admittedly in those clothes the guy presents heavier but still a out of proportion chin for his size? I know there are lots of people with chins like this so it’s hardly conclusive but it’s such a defining feature to me. Also if the guy did lose weight in those 6 months, it makes sense to me that it would be the last weight he would lose in the Small footage.

    Great research done on suppressors Nic (I live in the UK so even the thought of being able to buy a gun from a shop freaks me out and I knew absolutely nothing about the purchase of any firearms equipment).

    I’m almost at the end of episode 2 but I’m not sure if you mentioned- I wonder if the person who was meant to be working was looked into as a possible target? I got massive professional hit vibes (mainly because the calmness reminded me of Killing Eve the TV show haha!) and if their shift change was relatively last minute I wonder if the targeted party just hadn’t had time to tell anyone yet? Who knows though!

  • Linda
    Linda Cortland, OH
    I'm sure the police have already checked this out but what about employees or previous employees of either the gun shop or the Cash Advance store?

    I'm sure the police have already checked this out but what about employees or previous employees of either the gun shop or the Cash Advance store?

  • Shauna
    Shauna Michigan
    The white label on his pants looks like a uniform label. My husband gets uni pants where he works and his have a label on the outside of the waist band. Size and last name are on the labels. Not sure if someone could cross reference uni companies in the area with what look to be black Dickie uni pants. I'm sure there are a ton of uni companies but maybe worth a shot (no pun intended!).

    The white label on his pants looks like a uniform label. My husband gets uni pants where he works and his have a label on the outside of the waist band. Size and last name are on the labels. Not sure if someone could cross reference uni companies in the area with what look to be black Dickie uni pants. I'm sure there are a ton of uni companies but maybe worth a shot (no pun intended!).

  • Cinnamon
    Cinnamon Houston
    Thanks for the show but your website is impossible to navigate without a search button. Try searching for episode 58 on your website: impossible. Add a search button. Have you thought about researching Warren Jeffs? Why do thousands of FLDS do what he says and think he’s a prophet even though he’s in prison. Bizarre case. Cheers mateys

    Thanks for the show but your website is impossible to navigate without a search button. Try searching for episode 58 on your website: impossible. Add a search button.

    Have you thought about researching Warren Jeffs? Why do thousands of FLDS do what he says and think he’s a prophet even though he’s in prison. Bizarre case.

    Cheers mateys

  • Dave
    Dave California
    This is a very strange murder. On the surface, it looks like a “ robbery gone bad” but while aspects of the crime appear well planned and organized, not considering the video surveillance seems too much of an amateur error. He may have been taken by surprise when Chelsea hit the silent alarm and shooting her may not have been part of the plan. If he had done his homework he would have known that most of the money would be in a safe and he would need Chelsea alive to access it. He found the cash very quickly which made me suspect he did know the layout of the business. If this was just a robbery, it seems like a well planned amateur operation with obvious errors. The silencer is a strange touch, an armed robber wouldn’t plan on actually firing the gun. I’m wondering if this was sort of a dress rehearsal for a guy who was planning to get into the Armed Robbery business and chose that business because it provided the safest in&out rather than the potential for a significant take. Could he have been planning to rob a bank and make real money on that caper? Any bank robberies in Michigan in the next six months? Chelsea was presumably not the target of a hired hit. There was nothing in her background that would suggest any motive to pay out that kind of money to kill her. Hit men do make mistakes however. Did the woman who was scheduled to work that shift, have that kind of motive hanging over her?

    This is a very strange murder. On the surface, it looks like a “ robbery gone bad” but while aspects of the crime appear well planned and organized, not considering the video surveillance seems too much of an amateur error. He may have been taken by surprise when Chelsea hit the silent alarm and shooting her may not have been part of the plan. If he had done his homework he would have known that most of the money would be in a safe and he would need Chelsea alive to access it. He found the cash very quickly which made me suspect he did know the layout of the business. If this was just a robbery, it seems like a well planned amateur operation with obvious errors. The silencer is a strange touch, an armed robber wouldn’t plan on actually firing the gun. I’m wondering if this was sort of a dress rehearsal for a guy who was planning to get into the Armed Robbery business and chose that business because it provided the safest in&out rather than the potential for a significant take. Could he have been planning to rob a bank and make real money on that caper?
    Any bank robberies in Michigan in the next six months?

    Chelsea was presumably not the target of a hired hit. There was nothing in her background that would suggest any motive to pay out that kind of money to kill her. Hit men do make mistakes however. Did the woman who was scheduled to work that shift, have that kind of motive hanging over her?

  • Bea
    Bea New England
    Was there any investigation by LE into the person who was supposed to be working that day? If there was any reason they would have a hit against them?

    Was there any investigation by LE into the person who was supposed to be working that day? If there was any reason they would have a hit against them?

  • True Crime Garage
    True Crime Garage
    Hi Bea, Thanks for the question. I asked Taylor police that same question and what we came up with was the person scheduled to work and Chelsea look nothing alike. It couldn't be a hit with mistaken identity as it would have been obvious to the hitman that the target was not Chelsea. The other thought too would be the right target would still be marked and eventually we would have two homicides. It is an intriguing thought, that you and I both shared. Thanks Nic

    Hi Bea,
    Thanks for the question. I asked Taylor police that same question and what we came up with was the person scheduled to work and Chelsea look nothing alike. It couldn't be a hit with mistaken identity as it would have been obvious to the hitman that the target was not Chelsea. The other thought too would be the right target would still be marked and eventually we would have two homicides. It is an intriguing thought, that you and I both shared.
    Thanks Nic

  • True Crime Garage
    True Crime Garage
    Hey All!!! We are trying to reach our goal of 30,000 ratings on Apple Podcast and hoping to get to 4.8 out of 5 stars. Please help. If you don't have time to write a review simply gives us 5 stars, if you think we deserve it. We love you and please, if you could take 30 seconds and show some love back. It's like one BIG love fest in the Garage!!! If you wish, share this on social. Next week is a BIG show for us and I'd love to reach this goal by Monday. Tall cans in air, CHEERS! Nic

    Hey All!!!
    We are trying to reach our goal of 30,000 ratings on Apple Podcast and hoping to get to 4.8 out of 5 stars.
    Please help. If you don't have time to write a review simply gives us 5 stars, if you think we deserve it.
    We love you and please, if you could take 30 seconds and show some love back. It's like one BIG love fest in the Garage!!!
    If you wish, share this on social. Next week is a BIG show for us and I'd love to reach this goal by Monday.
    Tall cans in air, CHEERS!
    Nic

  • Kendra
    Kendra Michigan
    Not 100%, but wouldn’t be at all surprised if this was a hit or some other hired job to get something. This guy had no obvious connection to the place or person, and was an expert with the gun and killing. And the average person doesn’t have or even think of using a silencer. A person doesn’t need a silencer if they are just using the gun to threaten and steal. Way too calm, definitely didn’t just panic and shoot, not to mention silent alarms aren’t obvious when set off, so probably expected it to be done, and came in knowing they would kill.

    Not 100%, but wouldn’t be at all surprised if this was a hit or some other hired job to get something. This guy had no obvious connection to the place or person, and was an expert with the gun and killing. And the average person doesn’t have or even think of using a silencer. A person doesn’t need a silencer if they are just using the gun to threaten and steal. Way too calm, definitely didn’t just panic and shoot, not to mention silent alarms aren’t obvious when set off, so probably expected it to be done, and came in knowing they would kill.

  • Bill
    Bill Michigan
    Did Taylor police and Jackson ever sent those pictures to every apartment complex or realtor agency from Detroit, Ann Arbor and Jackson. They must have lived somewhere near those cities

    Did Taylor police and Jackson ever sent those pictures to every apartment complex or realtor agency from Detroit, Ann Arbor and Jackson. They must have lived somewhere near those cities

  • Isla
    Isla Roseville, CA
    Is there a link to the full video anywhere?

    Is there a link to the full video anywhere?

  • True Crime Garage
    True Crime Garage
    @ Isla - the full video has never been released. When I asked the police what is the best video they said the stuff released to the news is good but the True crime daily video is the best as it is the first time they were showing the silencer. That is the one where I see gloves on the guy as well. https://truecrimedaily.com/2017/09/28/exclusive-police-release-new-detail-in-chelsea-small-cold-case-murder/ Thats the link - you may need to copy and paste it as it doesn't seem to be allowing me to "link" it. Cheers Nic

    @ Isla - the full video has never been released. When I asked the police what is the best video they said the stuff released to the news is good but the True crime daily video is the best as it is the first time they were showing the silencer. That is the one where I see gloves on the guy as well. https://truecrimedaily.com/2017/09/28/exclusive-police-release-new-detail-in-chelsea-small-cold-case-murder/
    Thats the link - you may need to copy and paste it as it doesn't seem to be allowing me to "link" it.
    Cheers Nic

  • Bernardo Escobedo
    Bernardo Escobedo Texas
    In regards to the pants, the white label on the belt line could be a barcode. I've worked at places that use uniform service and they attached a barcode to the clothes. It would be a service a blue collar job would use.

    In regards to the pants, the white label on the belt line could be a barcode. I've worked at places that use uniform service and they attached a barcode to the clothes. It would be a service a blue collar job would use.

  • Mike
    Mike Miami
    First, I offer my condolences to the family of this crime. This woman was a mother, a daughter, a sister, and a friend; nobody ever deserves to go through what this woman and her family have gone through. This was a senseless act of cold blooded violence, and this man needs to be taken off the streets. What is shocking to me about the evidence here is that it all says premeditated murder, yet the risk of leaving evidence behind which heightened his risk of being caught came from his robbery (the touching stuff). It seems to me as if he is disgusted to some degree, in many of the pictures he seems to be hunchbacked, and in others it seems as if he’s wearing padding to make himself appear heavier. A silencer is NOT a common thing to have, even for people whom are big gun collectors or enthusiasts. My friend is a veteran, and he has a collection of guns; but he never has even seen a silencer in person before. This is a very advanced form of criminal, much more than the average murder-robbery stick up guy. It’s a rare thing to have this happen with that kind of weapon, along with the silencer; to me this says that the suspect has likely killed before. He entered the store preparing to kill. The way he moved, the silencer, and the gun itself all show he was very methodical. It has happened before where someone is killed by a person for just a small some of money, but here it doesn’t add up. From the logical standpoint of any “average” criminal, why would someone take that risk, in broad daylight, and all for $200?? It makes no sense. That gun, the silencer, his movements, the time it happened, and whatnot all say a very different motive may be at work there. I alway thought this, like most armored car robberies could’ve been an inside-job; or at least someone who was very familiar with how these places worked. He may have been angry with the fact he knew she tripped the silent alarm, but still…he was in no rush to get out of there, so this theory may be wrong. Regardless, I hope this woman and her loved ones get justice soon enough.

    First, I offer my condolences to the family of this crime. This woman was a mother, a daughter, a sister, and a friend; nobody ever deserves to go through what this woman and her family have gone through. This was a senseless act of cold blooded violence, and this man needs to be taken off the streets.

    What is shocking to me about the evidence here is that it all says premeditated murder, yet the risk of leaving evidence behind which heightened his risk of being caught came from his robbery (the touching stuff). It seems to me as if he is disgusted to some degree, in many of the pictures he seems to be hunchbacked, and in others it seems as if he’s wearing padding to make himself appear heavier.

    A silencer is NOT a common thing to have, even for people whom are big gun collectors or enthusiasts. My friend is a veteran, and he has a collection of guns; but he never has even seen a silencer in person before. This is a very advanced form of criminal, much more than the average murder-robbery stick up guy. It’s a rare thing to have this happen with that kind of weapon, along with the silencer; to me this says that the suspect has likely killed before.

    He entered the store preparing to kill. The way he moved, the silencer, and the gun itself all show he was very methodical. It has happened before where someone is killed by a person for just a small some of money, but here it doesn’t add up. From the logical standpoint of any “average” criminal, why would someone take that risk, in broad daylight, and all for $200?? It makes no sense. That gun, the silencer, his movements, the time it happened, and whatnot all say a very different motive may be at work there.

    I alway thought this, like most armored car robberies could’ve been an inside-job; or at least someone who was very familiar with how these places worked. He may have been angry with the fact he knew she tripped the silent alarm, but still…he was in no rush to get out of there, so this theory may be wrong.

    Regardless, I hope this woman and her loved ones get justice soon enough.

  • Joelle
    Joelle Alabama
    A late night Thought: re the convenient timing of the robbery at the America advanced and also the mentioned timing of I-70 killer: could the suspect/s have used Google's live business info to check business patterns without having to actually visit in person? And following that thought, Google's location histories- is there a way to basically reverse search this, ie: business in question pulls users who were databased at the location and time of incident? I know my phone will auto ask me for a review of places I visit within the next 15-30 minutes of leaving, so it's definitely tracking. Just wondering if that's been explored. Just started listening. 👍

    A late night Thought: re the convenient timing of the robbery at the America advanced and also the mentioned timing of I-70 killer: could the suspect/s have used Google's live business info to check business patterns without having to actually visit in person?
    And following that thought, Google's location histories- is there a way to basically reverse search this, ie: business in question pulls users who were databased at the location and time of incident? I know my phone will auto ask me for a review of places I visit within the next 15-30 minutes of leaving, so it's definitely tracking. Just wondering if that's been explored.
    Just started listening. 👍

  • Sergio
    Sergio Detroit
    Robbery (purposes unknown). NOT a hit...and Idk why people have to keep explaining the obvious. As already mentioned and confirmed it's the Schupbach sporting store robber as well. Suspect is single. Little to no family. No wife. No kids. Residency can be narrowed down to Jackson, Lansing, the UP, Southfield, Burton and Owosso areas. Additionally. Suspect likely has an expired license. That's what all I know for now. Will update once I find more.

    Robbery (purposes unknown). NOT a hit...and Idk why people have to keep explaining the obvious. As already mentioned and confirmed it's the Schupbach sporting store robber as well. Suspect is single. Little to no family. No wife. No kids. Residency can be narrowed down to Jackson, Lansing, the UP, Southfield, Burton and Owosso areas.

    Additionally. Suspect likely has an expired license.

    That's what all I know for now. Will update once I find more.

  • Karen
    Karen MD
    Most manufacturing plants/Auto mechanics wear rented uniforms like he is wearing. That would be what the tag is. Indicated the employee’s name/ID so when the uniforms are laundered by the rental company, they get back to correct employee. (My son has held both types of jobs and gets uniforms like that from both. ). Def look like work boots as well.

    Most manufacturing plants/Auto mechanics wear rented uniforms like he is wearing. That would be what the tag is. Indicated the employee’s name/ID so when the uniforms are laundered by the rental company, they get back to correct employee. (My son has held both types of jobs and gets uniforms like that from both. ). Def look like work boots as well.

  • True Crime Garage
    True Crime Garage
    @ Karen - thank you. Could be a parts delivery person as well. That was actually one of the more prominent theories in the I-70 killer case. Cheers Nic

    @ Karen - thank you. Could be a parts delivery person as well. That was actually one of the more prominent theories in the I-70 killer case.
    Cheers Nic

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