JonBenet Ramsey ////// The Family

46 comments

  • Jenni

    Jenni Ky

    Thank you!!!! You took the words out of my mouth! Cheers!!!!

    Thank you!!!! You took the words out of my mouth! Cheers!!!!

  • RACHEL

    RACHEL O-H-I-O

    I am confused with how it's science that the strangulation came first. The autopsy ruled it was asphyxiation associated with blunt force trauma. I was under the impression that it could not be determined which came first. Just as a possibility, consider this: The garotte belongs to John and Patsy. They use it in their own sex life. One day, Burke sneaks up to the third floor where his parents are engaging in sex using the garotte. We have all seen pictures of their bedroom. The little staircase with the railing would be an ideal place to be undetected while also having a full view of the bed. Burke decides he is going to engage in this type of “play” with Jonbenet. He wakes Jonbenet up with a flashlight so they do not turn on lights and wake the parents. He tells her they can sneak downstairs and have some pineapple. He doesn’t quite get up enough nerve to try what he wants to try until they get back upstairs in her bedroom. But then he goes for it. He begins attempting to strangle her and in his inexperience, does not understand that there is a difference between gentle strangulation that adults might use to intensify an orgasm, and violent strangling. The more she tries to defend herself, the harder he pulls. He gets afraid she is going to wake up their parents so he impulsively hits her head with the flashlight he has been carrying. Due to the lack of blood flow and pressure from the ongoing strangulation, her skull cracks quite easily. (Think of when you have a sink hole in areas where underground caverns were once filled with water, but low water tables lead to unstable ground and a road once capable of carrying semitrucks, now collapses from too much foot traffic.) After this, she stops moving. He shakes her to try to wake her. At this point he either runs to grab his parents, or the more likely scenario, they hear some commotion and head downstairs to find what happened. Burke tells them it was an accident, explains what he saw them doing. They quickly realize there is no saving her. She isn’t breathing. She is gone. So in their embarrassment and panic to save their remaining child, they concoct this plan. They send Burke to his room and tell him to stay there and do not come out for any reason until they come get him. They move her body to the basement, stage the scene, write the note, the rest is history. I realize that’s just a speculative what if scenario, but I am writing it to illustrate the point that its not as simple as a parent strangling a child that’s still breathing to spare their guilty child. It’s not as simple as some kinky pedophile who likes erotic asphyxia can be the only one who did it. It’s not as simple as her body was found in the basement so the crime occurred in the basement. Its not even as simple as Burke is a criminal mastermind. It seems more plausible to me that Burke is a troubled child who more than likely was feeling neglected and/or being abused himself, which is why he acted it out on his sister. That is INCREDIBLY common in abused kids. It is more the rule than the exception that they will abuse other kids. Could explain why the Ramseys were going to be indicted for child endangerment. Anyways, great job guys. You really did an in-depth job. And Nic, I noticed how careful you were to remain as objective as possible. You came across very disciplined in trying to keep any bias in check. 😊

    I am confused with how it's science that the strangulation came first. The autopsy ruled it was asphyxiation associated with blunt force trauma. I was under the impression that it could not be determined which came first. Just as a possibility, consider this:
    The garotte belongs to John and Patsy. They use it in their own sex life. One day, Burke sneaks up to the third floor where his parents are engaging in sex using the garotte. We have all seen pictures of their bedroom. The little staircase with the railing would be an ideal place to be undetected while also having a full view of the bed. Burke decides he is going to engage in this type of “play” with Jonbenet. He wakes Jonbenet up with a flashlight so they do not turn on lights and wake the parents. He tells her they can sneak downstairs and have some pineapple. He doesn’t quite get up enough nerve to try what he wants to try until they get back upstairs in her bedroom. But then he goes for it. He begins attempting to strangle her and in his inexperience, does not understand that there is a difference between gentle strangulation that adults might use to intensify an orgasm, and violent strangling. The more she tries to defend herself, the harder he pulls. He gets afraid she is going to wake up their parents so he impulsively hits her head with the flashlight he has been carrying. Due to the lack of blood flow and pressure from the ongoing strangulation, her skull cracks quite easily. (Think of when you have a sink hole in areas where underground caverns were once filled with water, but low water tables lead to unstable ground and a road once capable of carrying semitrucks, now collapses from too much foot traffic.) After this, she stops moving. He shakes her to try to wake her. At this point he either runs to grab his parents, or the more likely scenario, they hear some commotion and head downstairs to find what happened. Burke tells them it was an accident, explains what he saw them doing. They quickly realize there is no saving her. She isn’t breathing. She is gone. So in their embarrassment and panic to save their remaining child, they concoct this plan. They send Burke to his room and tell him to stay there and do not come out for any reason until they come get him. They move her body to the basement, stage the scene, write the note, the rest is history.

    I realize that’s just a speculative what if scenario, but I am writing it to illustrate the point that its not as simple as a parent strangling a child that’s still breathing to spare their guilty child. It’s not as simple as some kinky pedophile who likes erotic asphyxia can be the only one who did it. It’s not as simple as her body was found in the basement so the crime occurred in the basement. Its not even as simple as Burke is a criminal mastermind. It seems more plausible to me that Burke is a troubled child who more than likely was feeling neglected and/or being abused himself, which is why he acted it out on his sister. That is INCREDIBLY common in abused kids. It is more the rule than the exception that they will abuse other kids. Could explain why the Ramseys were going to be indicted for child endangerment. Anyways, great job guys. You really did an in-depth job. And Nic, I noticed how careful you were to remain as objective as possible. You came across very disciplined in trying to keep any bias in check. 😊

  • DM

    DM UK

    Hi Nic & Captain, Firstly - thank you both so much for such a fascinating, enthralling, comprehensive, well-researched and admirably unbiased investigation. Amazing work & I found myself nodding along with most of what you both had to say. I have always thought that the most likely explanation is that John murdered JonBenet, and I am still of that opinion. This isn’t an “I’m right, you’re wrong” post, I promise...I wasn’t there, so I don’t know, but based on the evidence that I see, I still think it was probably John. I think you may be mistaken in your analysis of the scientific findings. The majority of the pathologists consulted regarding the autopsy findings were of the opinion that JonBenet had suffered repeated instances of penetrative sexual abuse before her death. In particular her hymen was much larger & thicker than it should have been - at least twice the size of an average, non-assaulted six year old. That said, there are other pathologists who rejected that & proffered alternative explanations, but they were in the minority. This does not prove anything either way, but it’s highly suggestive, imo. The head injury certainly occured prior to death, because it bled. Possibly it occured very close to the moment she died but, once again, the jury is out. It could have been up to an hour before she died. You can find expert opinions for both positions, so the issue for us non-experts remains ambiguous. The knots used for the garotte are not those that would generally be used for a sex game. You can tighten the string easily but it’s far more difficult to loosen them - so useless for any kind of game. Also, there’s limited evidence that JonBenet struggled. There may have been fingernail marks on her neck (possibly) but there was no skin under her fingernails & no evidence that she’d bitten her tongue or cheeks as people tend to do while being strangled. Also, she was found with her hands tied above her head. If she was able to scratch at her throat while dying, then the hands tied up must have been for staging purposes after she died. Her hands were only very loosely tied, by the way, so if the murderer did that to stop her pulling at the ligature, it wouldn’t have worked as she could have freed her hands easily, and probably would if fighting for her life. So it probably was staging. But what nails it for me is the ransom letter. $118,000? That cannot possibly be a coincidence. Whoever wrote that note must have been very well acquainted with John. Even if the $1bn turnover was well known, John’s personal bonus would not have been. Why would the intruder be willing to broadcast this personal link to John? He didn’t want the money, this was all smoke and mirrors...so why not say $1m as most kidnappers would? It made no difference to him. But why would John specify this amount (if he wrote the note)? Because it achieves two things for him: That letter was to fool nobody except Patsy. He wanted to delay the police so that he had the opportunity of removing JonBenet’s body from the house. If he’d written $1m then Patsy would know he couldn’t easily lay his hands on that amount of cash so may have insisted on calling in help right away. If it says $118k then he has more chance of convincing her to let him go straight to the bank because that amount of money is available in his account. He can also say, “See, Patsy? This kidnapper knows me well enough to know how much cash I have...they must have been watching us like they say they were”. I don’t know why John was so summarily dismissed as the writer of the letter. An example of his handwriting is available online and does look remarkably like the ransom letter - some of the letters are absolutely identical. Not conclusive, of course, but he shouldn’t have been discounted, imo. Also...a call to 911 was made twice that morning. The first one did not connect. Did John try to stop Patsy calling? I could of course be entirely wrong but I genuinely think it was John. I know he had no history of abuse of any kind, but human beings are very strange - and father/daughter sexual abuse is horribly common. I think he abused her that night. She screamed/shouted, he hit her & knocked her out, killed her by strangulation then staged it to look like a sex crime. He then realised that her body being found in the home implicated him so he cooked up the ransom letter with the intention of leaving the house “to get the money” but actually taking JonBenet’s body away in a suitcase. Patsy ruined his plan by calling the police in a panic and he wasn’t able to stop her. Again, thanks for giving us all so much food for thought. I love your podcast & look forward to what you have for us in the New Year. Happy Christmas from a wet and windy UK 😀😀

    Hi Nic & Captain,

    Firstly - thank you both so much for such a fascinating, enthralling, comprehensive, well-researched and admirably unbiased investigation. Amazing work & I found myself nodding along with most of what you both had to say.

    I have always thought that the most likely explanation is that John murdered JonBenet, and I am still of that opinion. This isn’t an “I’m right, you’re wrong” post, I promise...I wasn’t there, so I don’t know, but based on the evidence that I see, I still think it was probably John.

    I think you may be mistaken in your analysis of the scientific findings. The majority of the pathologists consulted regarding the autopsy findings were of the opinion that JonBenet had suffered repeated instances of penetrative sexual abuse before her death. In particular her hymen was much larger & thicker than it should have been - at least twice the size of an average, non-assaulted six year old. That said, there are other pathologists who rejected that & proffered alternative explanations, but they were in the minority. This does not prove anything either way, but it’s highly suggestive, imo.

    The head injury certainly occured prior to death, because it bled. Possibly it occured very close to the moment she died but, once again, the jury is out. It could have been up to an hour before she died. You can find expert opinions for both positions, so the issue for us non-experts remains ambiguous.

    The knots used for the garotte are not those that would generally be used for a sex game. You can tighten the string easily but it’s far more difficult to loosen them - so useless for any kind of game.

    Also, there’s limited evidence that JonBenet struggled. There may have been fingernail marks on her neck (possibly) but there was no skin under her fingernails & no evidence that she’d bitten her tongue or cheeks as people tend to do while being strangled. Also, she was found with her hands tied above her head. If she was able to scratch at her throat while dying, then the hands tied up must have been for staging purposes after she died. Her hands were only very loosely tied, by the way, so if the murderer did that to stop her pulling at the ligature, it wouldn’t have worked as she could have freed her hands easily, and probably would if fighting for her life. So it probably was staging.

    But what nails it for me is the ransom letter.

    $118,000? That cannot possibly be a coincidence. Whoever wrote that note must have been very well acquainted with John. Even if the $1bn turnover was well known, John’s personal bonus would not have been.

    Why would the intruder be willing to broadcast this personal link to John? He didn’t want the money, this was all smoke and mirrors...so why not say $1m as most kidnappers would? It made no difference to him.

    But why would John specify this amount (if he wrote the note)? Because it achieves two things for him:

    That letter was to fool nobody except Patsy. He wanted to delay the police so that he had the opportunity of removing JonBenet’s body from the house.

    If he’d written $1m then Patsy would know he couldn’t easily lay his hands on that amount of cash so may have insisted on calling in help right away. If it says $118k then he has more chance of convincing her to let him go straight to the bank because that amount of money is available in his account. He can also say, “See, Patsy? This kidnapper knows me well enough to know how much cash I have...they must have been watching us like they say they were”.

    I don’t know why John was so summarily dismissed as the writer of the letter. An example of his handwriting is available online and does look remarkably like the ransom letter - some of the letters are absolutely identical. Not conclusive, of course, but he shouldn’t have been discounted, imo.

    Also...a call to 911 was made twice that morning. The first one did not connect. Did John try to stop Patsy calling?

    I could of course be entirely wrong but I genuinely think it was John. I know he had no history of abuse of any kind, but human beings are very strange - and father/daughter sexual abuse is horribly common.

    I think he abused her that night. She screamed/shouted, he hit her & knocked her out, killed her by strangulation then staged it to look like a sex crime. He then realised that her body being found in the home implicated him so he cooked up the ransom letter with the intention of leaving the house “to get the money” but actually taking JonBenet’s body away in a suitcase.

    Patsy ruined his plan by calling the police in a panic and he wasn’t able to stop her.

    Again, thanks for giving us all so much food for thought. I love your podcast & look forward to what you have for us in the New Year.

    Happy Christmas from a wet and windy UK 😀😀

  • Uncle D.

    Uncle D. BFE

    Santa Bill

    Santa Bill

  • Jeff

    Jeff Brooklyn

    Jesus what a mess none of you guys arguments make any sense it would take me a novel to pick a part you guys reasoning of this series. Worst case you guys handled you should have left this one alone.

    Jesus what a mess none of you guys arguments make any sense it would take me a novel to pick a part you guys reasoning of this series.

    Worst case you guys handled you should have left this one alone.

  • Susan

    Susan Wayne, IL

    Regarding the holiday “what our family did this year” letters, sadly they are not only upper class people. We used to get at least 4 a year and still at least 2. And yes Captain, it’s douchy, because I don’t care how amazing their kids are or what their cats did (seriously, the cat thing is real!). 😣

    Regarding the holiday “what our family did this year” letters, sadly they are not only upper class people. We used to get at least 4 a year and still at least 2. And yes Captain, it’s douchy, because I don’t care how amazing their kids are or what their cats did (seriously, the cat thing is real!). 😣

  • Chris

    Chris PA - Pennsylvania

    Someone living in the house murdered this child. The maid pointing out the mom regularly put the sheets in the washer before the maid started her day was to cover something up. Why the sheets? Did the mom also randomly dust the house or do other parts of the maid's job? She was being molested. Urinating and defecating the bed are good signs. The mother apparently may have had mental issues, and Burke may have also. He really seems a tad...off. If the father was the molester, the mother may have become jealous of the "relationship" between daughter and father, or the brother was jealous of his beauty pageant sister. Internet research shows the knots were not complicated, and why there are no fingerprints on the bondage device I don't understand.

    Someone living in the house murdered this child. The maid pointing out the mom regularly put the sheets in the washer before the maid started her day was to cover something up. Why the sheets? Did the mom also randomly dust the house or do other parts of the maid's job? She was being molested. Urinating and defecating the bed are good signs. The mother apparently may have had mental issues, and Burke may have also. He really seems a tad...off. If the father was the molester, the mother may have become jealous of the "relationship" between daughter and father, or the brother was jealous of his beauty pageant sister. Internet research shows the knots were not complicated, and why there are no fingerprints on the bondage device I don't understand.

  • GB

    GB Rochester NY

    First off, love you guys. Been listening since almost the beginning. I love your work on this huge episode. The main thing that I can never get my head around is the ransom call. As a parent, if a note was left stating that a phone call was coming me or my wife would be parked in front of the phone until either the call came or the body was found. The fact that the ransom call seemed be be an afterthought to the Ramseys leads me to think it was someone in the family almost irregardless of any other evidence. A truly bizarre case. Happy holidays guys and thanks for the years of entertainment. GB

    First off, love you guys. Been listening since almost the beginning. I love your work on this huge episode.

    The main thing that I can never get my head around is the ransom call. As a parent, if a note was left stating that a phone call was coming me or my wife would be parked in front of the phone until either the call came or the body was found. The fact that the ransom call seemed be be an afterthought to the Ramseys leads me to think it was someone in the family almost irregardless of any other evidence. A truly bizarre case.

    Happy holidays guys and thanks for the years of entertainment.

    GB

  • Rachael

    Rachael Missouri

    I mentioned on a previous episode that I'd always believed the parents were involved, but your coverage had me seeing how it could be an intruder. This episode I feel a lot of hoops were jumped through and a lot of mental gymnastics were done to make the intruder theory fit. Idk, nothing seems to fit, honestly. To me, the simplest explanation is it was perpetrated by a member of the family (I think Burke is not a plausible suspect, personally). Good series though, very thorough!

    I mentioned on a previous episode that I'd always believed the parents were involved, but your coverage had me seeing how it could be an intruder. This episode I feel a lot of hoops were jumped through and a lot of mental gymnastics were done to make the intruder theory fit. Idk, nothing seems to fit, honestly. To me, the simplest explanation is it was perpetrated by a member of the family (I think Burke is not a plausible suspect, personally). Good series though, very thorough!

  • Barbara

    Barbara Maine

    I want to thank you both for your coverage of this case. Most true crime fans such as myself have seen all the shows and heard this case covered so many times. But I think you both did a fantastic job by presenting the facts, looking at it in the "real time" and not going down the speculation hole too much. I love the 6 part episode and am appreciative of your efforts. I wish you both a nice holiday break. With that being said, you both brought up points that I had never thought of and it is safe to say that my mind has shifted to a new theory from what I believed for so long.

    I want to thank you both for your coverage of this case. Most true crime fans such as myself have seen all the shows and heard this case covered so many times. But I think you both did a fantastic job by presenting the facts, looking at it in the "real time" and not going down the speculation hole too much. I love the 6 part episode and am appreciative of your efforts. I wish you both a nice holiday break.

    With that being said, you both brought up points that I had never thought of and it is safe to say that my mind has shifted to a new theory from what I believed for so long.

  • Jessica

    Jessica TX

    My question is could it be possible that Bill McReynolds kidnapped his own daughter masked in order to get to her friend?? If so what does the friend look like and does she resemble JonBenet

    My question is could it be possible that Bill McReynolds kidnapped his own daughter masked in order to get to her friend?? If so what does the friend look like and does she resemble JonBenet

  • maire

    maire Dublin

    a real bumbling few episodes, love the show guys but you really did a hatchet job on this.

    a real bumbling few episodes, love the show guys but you really did a hatchet job on this.

  • Dina

    Dina Canada

    Just wanted to make mention that making fun of someone for how they look is the lowest thing anyone can do. Will not be listening to any of your podcasts after you keep making fun of someone saying"crazy eyes". Not funny.

    Just wanted to make mention that making fun of someone for how they look is the lowest thing anyone can do. Will not be listening to any of your podcasts after you keep making fun of someone saying"crazy eyes". Not funny.

  • Christina

    Christina Duluth, MN

    Does anyone know how far investigators dug into John’s work relationships? Looking at the DC Mansion Murders, It was an employee that had been terminated 10 years prior to the crime. Someone capable of brutally murdering a child is totally capable of plotting and planning for years to commit a crime. They had opportunity to

    Does anyone know how far investigators dug into John’s work relationships? Looking at the DC Mansion Murders, It was an employee that had been terminated 10 years prior to the crime.
    Someone capable of brutally murdering a child is totally capable of plotting and planning for years to commit a crime. They had opportunity to

  • Anonymous

    Anonymous NY

    A lot of the scientific opinion presented in this episode was plain wrong. Especially regarding sexual abuse. Most of the scientific community agreed that there was a history of acute sexual trauma, and that the head wound happened before the strangulation. I love you guys, but I'm not sure where you got your information from. Here is a chart with the medial examiner's and their opinions: https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/wiki/medical_opinions

    A lot of the scientific opinion presented in this episode was plain wrong. Especially regarding sexual abuse. Most of the scientific community agreed that there was a history of acute sexual trauma, and that the head wound happened before the strangulation. I love you guys, but I'm not sure where you got your information from. Here is a chart with the medial examiner's and their opinions: https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/wiki/medical_opinions

  • P.R.

    P.R. The Undiscovered Country

    Mr. Nic, Listen carefully! We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. Ok, never mind that as a middle age woman I forgot that terrorists wouldn't refer to themselves as "foreign" or likely as "small faction". We respect your podcast but not some of the theories that it serves up. You will withdraw $118,000.00 from John's account. Don't think about the fact that this is exactly the amount of his year end bonus - we're talking unknown intruders here, buddy! Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank. Wear a warm coat. Don't forget your hat. The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested and take your vitamins. Remember your snow boots - they're in the hall closet. If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier delivery pickup (I think we deliver, don't we? Most polite kidnappers would.) Did I just say "hence" again? Damn, I hate that... I say that all the time. Well, we all know most terrorists or sadistic mysterious sex fiend intruders say "hence" a lot, so don't be so suspicious. Any deviation of my instructions and she will die. (add movie quotes here). Mainly because somebody in the house already killed her. Don't try to grow a brain. Instead, keep alive all sorts of crazy, unlikely intruder theories. Chase down the many, many people we've thrown under the bus as potential suspects. Especially that Santa guy. (You just can't get good help these days). Also, keep thinking that the murder was committed using a torture device comprised of sophisticated knots. Ignore the counter opinions that contend the knots were terribly simple, hence a 9-year-old boy scout could tie them. I probably shouldn't have said that. Did I say "hence" again? Use that good southern common sense of yours, as most sadistic murderers or terrorists would advise you. It is up to you now! So we can, after 20 years, declare... Victory! S.B.T.C (Save Burke Through Collusion)

    Mr. Nic,
    Listen carefully! We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. Ok, never mind that as a middle age woman I forgot that terrorists wouldn't refer to themselves as "foreign" or likely as "small faction". We respect your podcast but not some of the theories that it serves up. You will withdraw $118,000.00 from John's account. Don't think about the fact that this is exactly the amount of his year end bonus - we're talking unknown intruders here, buddy! Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank. Wear a warm coat. Don't forget your hat. The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested and take your vitamins. Remember your snow boots - they're in the hall closet. If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier delivery pickup (I think we deliver, don't we? Most polite kidnappers would.) Did I just say "hence" again? Damn, I hate that... I say that all the time. Well, we all know most terrorists or sadistic mysterious sex fiend intruders say "hence" a lot, so don't be so suspicious. Any deviation of my instructions and she will die. (add movie quotes here). Mainly because somebody in the house already killed her. Don't try to grow a brain. Instead, keep alive all sorts of crazy, unlikely intruder theories. Chase down the many, many people we've thrown under the bus as potential suspects. Especially that Santa guy. (You just can't get good help these days). Also, keep thinking that the murder was committed using a torture device comprised of sophisticated knots. Ignore the counter opinions that contend the knots were terribly simple, hence a 9-year-old boy scout could tie them. I probably shouldn't have said that. Did I say "hence" again? Use that good southern common sense of yours, as most sadistic murderers or terrorists would advise you. It is up to you now! So we can, after 20 years, declare... Victory! S.B.T.C (Save Burke Through Collusion)

  • True Crime Garage

    True Crime Garage

    I love your post P.R. - I need to clear something up though as these posts are going off of the rails here. I said I’m 51% on the intruder theory. I’m not convinced 100% either way on who did it. And I say intruder theory, not unknown. The intruder could have been someone the family knew. For me that is probably the only way the intruder theory works. The Ramsey home had dozens and dozens of windows. According to Cyril Wecht’s book the police found 6 windows and 1 door unlocked on the 26th. Also anyone who disputes the blow to the head came after the strangulation, again check out Dr. Cyril Wecht’s book. He says he and the autopsy examiner Dr. Meyers concluded this. I’m not a doctor so as stated on the show - I’m relying on experts to help me form my opinion of I put the likely hood of a sexually motivated intruder likely known to the Ramsey’s that got into the home (not broke in) left the letter and was determined to take the child with them but something happened and they killed the JBR in the home and left at 51%. Several people have posted “so we are suppose to believe” no one is to believe anything but their own opinion. We just covered the story and gave an opinion. Love you all - cheers - merry Christmas - happy holidays - be good - be kind -don’t litter! Nic

    I love your post P.R. -
    I need to clear something up though as these posts are going off of the rails here. I said I’m 51% on the intruder theory. I’m not convinced 100% either way on who did it. And I say intruder theory, not unknown. The intruder could have been someone the family knew. For me that is probably the only way the intruder theory works. The Ramsey home had dozens and dozens of windows. According to Cyril Wecht’s book the police found 6 windows and 1 door unlocked on the 26th. Also anyone who disputes the blow to the head came after the strangulation, again check out Dr. Cyril Wecht’s book. He says he and the autopsy examiner Dr. Meyers concluded this. I’m not a doctor so as stated on the show - I’m relying on experts to help me form my opinion of I put the likely hood of a sexually motivated intruder likely known to the Ramsey’s that got into the home (not broke in) left the letter and was determined to take the child with them but something happened and they killed the JBR in the home and left at 51%.
    Several people have posted “so we are suppose to believe” no one is to believe anything but their own opinion. We just covered the story and gave an opinion.
    Love you all - cheers - merry Christmas - happy holidays - be good - be kind -don’t litter!
    Nic

  • AdequateSizeAttache

    AdequateSizeAttache Reddit

    >Also anyone who disputes the blow to the head came after the strangulation, again check out Dr. Cyril Wecht’s book. He says he and the autopsy examiner Dr. Meyers concluded this. First, this is a misrepresentation of Dr. Meyer's opinion - he has *never* publicly expressed what he has concluded when it comes to any interpretation of the injuries. He deliberately withheld his opinion for court and has continued to do so for 23 years. The autopsy report left it undetermined as to which came first. Here are the facts: Dr. Meyer was uncertain about which came first so he consulted a specialist to review the medical evidence and examine JonBenet's brain tissue. This specialist was pediatric neuropathologist Dr. Lucy Rorke (now Rorke-Adams), one of the nation's foremost authorities on children's brain injuries. She not only determined the craniocerebral trauma preceded the fatal ligature asphyxiation but it was her opinion that it did so by an estimated 45-120 minutes. She presented her findings before the Grand Jury and her medical report is an official part of the case file. We (the public) did not learn about Dr. Rorke's involvement in the case and medical opinion on JonBenet's brain injury until James Kolar published this information in his book Foreign Faction in 2012. So my response to the suggestion to check out Wecht's book is to check out Kolar's book in which there is updated medical evidence, straight from the case file, regarding the sequence of JonBenet's injuries. Cyril Wecht (whom I generally respect and whose books on the case I recommend because they do a great job at clarifying the autopsy findings regarding the prior and acute vaginal trauma) was not officially involved in this case and developed his opinion in 1997-1998 based on limited medical information. Do you guys honestly think that the opinion of a pathologist who saw only the autopsy report holds more weight than the opinion of a neuropathologist who had access to all of the coroner's materials, notes, photos, slides, etc. and who actually examined JonBenet's brain tissue sections under a microscope?

    >Also anyone who disputes the blow to the head came after the strangulation, again check out Dr. Cyril Wecht’s book. He says he and the autopsy examiner Dr. Meyers concluded this.

    First, this is a misrepresentation of Dr. Meyer's opinion - he has *never* publicly expressed what he has concluded when it comes to any interpretation of the injuries. He deliberately withheld his opinion for court and has continued to do so for 23 years. The autopsy report left it undetermined as to which came first.

    Here are the facts: Dr. Meyer was uncertain about which came first so he consulted a specialist to review the medical evidence and examine JonBenet's brain tissue. This specialist was pediatric neuropathologist Dr. Lucy Rorke (now Rorke-Adams), one of the nation's foremost authorities on children's brain injuries. She not only determined the craniocerebral trauma preceded the fatal ligature asphyxiation but it was
    her opinion that it did so by an estimated 45-120 minutes. She presented her findings before the Grand Jury and her medical report is an official part of the case file. We (the public) did not learn about Dr. Rorke's involvement in the case and medical opinion on JonBenet's brain injury until James Kolar published this information in his book Foreign Faction in 2012.

    So my response to the suggestion to check out Wecht's book is to check out Kolar's book in which there is updated medical evidence, straight from the case file, regarding the sequence of JonBenet's injuries. Cyril Wecht (whom I generally respect and whose books on the case I recommend because they do a great job at clarifying the autopsy findings regarding the prior and acute vaginal trauma) was not officially involved in this case and developed his opinion in 1997-1998 based on limited medical information. Do you guys honestly think that the opinion of a pathologist who saw only the autopsy report holds more weight than the opinion of a neuropathologist who had access to all of the coroner's materials, notes, photos, slides, etc. and who actually examined JonBenet's brain tissue sections under a microscope?

  • Johnson

    Johnson Australia

    Evidence for theories: The parents did it/parents covered up Burke doing it: why would an intruder write a long note instead of just taking her and leaving; claims of sexual abuse (be it not proven); often in these cases it’s a family member hence odds are it is the parents in this case. Analysis: Lack of conclusive proof it was an intruder seems to mean to people that therefore it must be the parents. End of story. Either Burke did it and they covered it up, or one of them did it and they both covered it up. This is entirely speculation and there is no actual evidence for it but that doesn’t stop the complete certainty that advocates hold this belief. The Ramsey’s are/were a bit off-beat, Burke seems almost on the spectrum, and the fact that they lawyered up means they knew what LE was going to be doing so like anyone (especially who is innocent) they rightly decided to speak through their lawyers. Like John did probably every day of his business life and found normal. An intruder did it: Why would patsy write a three page note in her own handwriting instead of one or two lines; an intruder is far more likely to tie her up in a garrotte for sexual pleasure whereas it’s hard to believe the parents would even think to consider this let alone do it to their girl; whether the strangling or the hit to head cane first, why wouldn’t the parents call 911 if it was an accident; there is DNA which is not co clue I’ve, however it was the same DNA taken from two seperate places (two separate garments even?); if Burke had anything to do with it they would not have sent him off to friends for the day where any nine year old would blab about it all; similar crime was attempted 9 months later against another girl, thankfully foiled by her mother. Analysis: lack of conclusive proof for intruder theory also. The DNA might even be a mix, though LE does seem confident about it. The ties and strangling against a six year older neck seems to align with a pedophile murderer, as opposed to two parents trying to cover up an accident. Ransom note is unlikely to have been written by patsy and extremely unlikely to be written by John. The argument that “as if an intruder would take her downstairs and do this without being heard” doesn’t hold up when you consider a) the house was three floors plus a basement, and the parents/kids bedrooms were on different floors, and b) the same crime (child sexual assault/kidnap) was attempted nine months later, so this intruder theory not only could be real but is definitely real a few months later, nearby. Conclusion: there’s no conclusive proof either way and the parents’ post-murder behaviour was odd (which is their nature), which is what leads people to take the easy route and blame them IMO. jBR dying after being hot and strung up points to an intruder and there’s not one bit of actual evidence that the Ramseys had anything to do with it. If anything I’m slightly disappointed it Nic for not going 80/20 intruder instead of (51/49) which is him trying to appease the majority of listeners in my opinion. Sticking to actual evidence, it’s impossible to say either way. But given the ransom note, 911 call, garrotte system, DNA (for what it’s worth) and complete lack of evidence against the parents, any fair person would favour the intruder theory more than 51/49.

    Evidence for theories:

    The parents did it/parents covered up Burke doing it:

    why would an intruder write a long note instead of just taking her and leaving; claims of sexual abuse (be it not proven); often in these cases it’s a family member hence odds are it is the parents in this case.

    Analysis: Lack of conclusive proof it was an intruder seems to mean to people that therefore it must be the parents. End of story. Either Burke did it and they covered it up, or one of them did it and they both covered it up. This is entirely speculation and there is no actual evidence for it but that doesn’t stop the complete certainty that advocates hold this belief. The Ramsey’s are/were a bit off-beat, Burke seems almost on the spectrum, and the fact that they lawyered up means they knew what LE was going to be doing so like anyone (especially who is innocent) they rightly decided to speak through their lawyers. Like John did probably every day of his business life and found normal.

    An intruder did it:

    Why would patsy write a three page note in her own handwriting instead of one or two lines; an intruder is far more likely to tie her up in a garrotte for sexual pleasure whereas it’s hard to believe the parents would even think to consider this let alone do it to their girl; whether the strangling or the hit to head cane first, why wouldn’t the parents call 911 if it was an accident; there is DNA which is not co clue I’ve, however it was the same DNA taken from two seperate places (two separate garments even?); if Burke had anything to do with it they would not have sent him off to friends for the day where any nine year old would blab about it all; similar crime was attempted 9 months later against another girl, thankfully foiled by her mother.

    Analysis: lack of conclusive proof for intruder theory also. The DNA might even be a mix, though LE does seem confident about it. The ties and strangling against a six year older neck seems to align with a pedophile murderer, as opposed to two parents trying to cover up an accident. Ransom note is unlikely to have been written by patsy and extremely unlikely to be written by John. The argument that “as if an intruder would take her downstairs and do this without being heard” doesn’t hold up when you consider a) the house was three floors plus a basement, and the parents/kids bedrooms were on different floors, and b) the same crime (child sexual assault/kidnap) was attempted nine months later, so this intruder theory not only could be real but is definitely real a few months later, nearby.

    Conclusion: there’s no conclusive proof either way and the parents’ post-murder behaviour was odd (which is their nature), which is what leads people to take the easy route and blame them IMO. jBR dying after being hot and strung up points to an intruder and there’s not one bit of actual evidence that the Ramseys had anything to do with it. If anything I’m slightly disappointed it Nic for not going 80/20 intruder instead of (51/49) which is him trying to appease the majority of listeners in my opinion.

    Sticking to actual evidence, it’s impossible to say either way. But given the ransom note, 911 call, garrotte system, DNA (for what it’s worth) and complete lack of evidence against the parents, any fair person would favour the intruder theory more than 51/49.

  • Pamela

    Pamela MI

    I just finished listening to pod casts regarding the Black Dahlia murder and George Hodel. I immediately afterward started listening to this podcast however that dark imagery stayed with me and it made me wonder what the significance of Christmas was? Could this situation been planned as a twisted Christmas present to ones self? Also, the M.E. said that he had noticed digital penetration two days prior, could it have been a situation where this was brand new molestation and the molester was afraid she was going to talk about it?

    I just finished listening to pod casts regarding the Black Dahlia murder and George Hodel. I immediately afterward started listening to this podcast however that dark imagery stayed with me and it made me wonder what the significance of Christmas was? Could this situation been planned as a twisted Christmas present to ones self?
    Also, the M.E. said that he had noticed digital penetration two days prior, could it have been a situation where this was brand new molestation and the molester was afraid she was going to talk about it?

  • Angela

    Angela KC

    Great show! Love how you guys always so thoroughly cover all the angles, facts, theories, thoughts. Your shows make all the others look like fluff. Jonbenet is such a massive one to tackle too. I think if I ever got the chance to time travel, I would be like, queue up the Ramsey house, Dec 25/26, 1996. I'm with the intruder theory though, such a tragedy for this family.

    Great show! Love how you guys always so thoroughly cover all the angles, facts, theories, thoughts. Your shows make all the others look like fluff. Jonbenet is such a massive one to tackle too. I think if I ever got the chance to time travel, I would be like, queue up the Ramsey house, Dec 25/26, 1996. I'm with the intruder theory though, such a tragedy for this family.

  • Billy

    Billy NJ

    You guys talked about a lot about how the note was written. It seemed to me like it wasn’t being copied down from a previously written version. It seemed like it was being dictated to the person writing it. It would explain the rambling nature, the scratch outs, etc. On the surface this idea would implicate the parents. It could also suggest an accomplice if it was an intruder.

    You guys talked about a lot about how the note was written. It seemed to me like it wasn’t being copied down from a previously written version. It seemed like it was being dictated to the person writing it. It would explain the rambling nature, the scratch outs, etc. On the surface this idea would implicate the parents. It could also suggest an accomplice if it was an intruder.

  • Cathy

    Cathy Cleveland

    Your coverage of the JonBenet case was top notch. Bravo! I love that you took so much time with this murder, giving it the deep dive it deserves. I learned a lot.

    Your coverage of the JonBenet case was top notch. Bravo! I love that you took so much time with this murder, giving it the deep dive it deserves. I learned a lot.

  • Irena

    Irena Milwaukee

    Great analysis from both of you guys. I just finished the Santa Claus ep., and I'm not sure if this gets covered later, but I've always leaned toward death by misadventure and subsequent cover up by the Ramseys.

    Great analysis from both of you guys. I just finished the Santa Claus ep., and I'm not sure if this gets covered later, but I've always leaned toward death by misadventure and subsequent cover up by the Ramseys.

  • Fenway22

    Fenway22 Boston

    These episodes were ill informed and biased in favor of exonerating the Ramsey's of involvement in their daughter's death. Not your best work guys.

    These episodes were ill informed and biased in favor of exonerating the Ramsey's of involvement in their daughter's death.

    Not your best work guys.

  • SJ

    SJ OTHER parts unknown

    Phew....that was tough ! I m not sitting on the fence anymore...... @ P R.....love your post. Whom are you kidnapping ? If it's Nic...I m in !! Thank you Gentlemen....love your podcast...best discovery of 2019... Merry Christmas and fantastic 2020...crispy Colonel and crusty Captain.....hope you will keep us enthralled in 2020 too...

    Phew....that was tough !
    I m not sitting on the fence anymore......

    @ P R.....love your post. Whom are you kidnapping ? If it's Nic...I m in !!

    Thank you Gentlemen....love your podcast...best discovery of 2019...

    Merry Christmas and fantastic 2020...crispy Colonel and crusty Captain.....hope you will keep us enthralled in 2020 too...

  • L-Train

    L-Train Parts Unknown

    First...Thank you so much for the in depth look that this case it was such a treat! I remember when it happened and it has stuck with me. I appreciate the extra effort you all put in. I have been thinking for a week since concluding the series. Do you think it was possible that John and Patsy knew the killer and was protecting them (for whatever reason but maybe blackmail) not Burke, but most likely someone outside the family. I wonder if someone had some sort of dirt on them. Something they did t or couldn't let get out. I have a hard time believing the parents or brother are to blame after hearing the graphic nature of the killing and how the body was left. I get it people are sick and twisted and even parents are messed up but this was another level. Also, I do not understand who they called the authorities so so so early if they were to blame. They could have easily bought an hour or so with the nature of the previous day's activities (everyone was sleeping in) this would have allowed them to move the body or dispose of it in a way that implicated them less. Also the note seemed very long and strangely specific. It was too detailed to be random. I think it was giving clues to the Ramsey's exactly who it was. I also wonder as a mother if I got a random note that was so explicit and clear about my child dying if I contacted authorities if I wouldn't pause before I called. Especially if the amount was low enough and I knew I had the cash to give. I know everyone reacts differently but I might have waited for the follow up call and when it didn't come then contact the police. It just makes me wonder that they might have known she was dead. Maybe they had received previous threats in some way. All of this is speculation but the entire case doesn't make sense to me it feels too gruesome to be accidental, too mature for a 9 year old, and too specific to be random. Great job boys!

    First...Thank you so much for the in depth look that this case it was such a treat! I remember when it happened and it has stuck with me. I appreciate the extra effort you all put in.

    I have been thinking for a week since concluding the series. Do you think it was possible that John and Patsy knew the killer and was protecting them (for whatever reason but maybe blackmail) not Burke, but most likely someone outside the family. I wonder if someone had some sort of dirt on them. Something they did t or couldn't let get out.

    I have a hard time believing the parents or brother are to blame after hearing the graphic nature of the killing and how the body was left. I get it people are sick and twisted and even parents are messed up but this was another level. Also, I do not understand who they called the authorities so so so early if they were to blame. They could have easily bought an hour or so with the nature of the previous day's activities (everyone was sleeping in) this would have allowed them to move the body or dispose of it in a way that implicated them less.

    Also the note seemed very long and strangely specific. It was too detailed to be random. I think it was giving clues to the Ramsey's exactly who it was. I also wonder as a mother if I got a random note that was so explicit and clear about my child dying if I contacted authorities if I wouldn't pause before I called. Especially if the amount was low enough and I knew I had the cash to give. I know everyone reacts differently but I might have waited for the follow up call and when it didn't come then contact the police. It just makes me wonder that they might have known she was dead. Maybe they had received previous threats in some way.

    All of this is speculation but the entire case doesn't make sense to me it feels too gruesome to be accidental, too mature for a 9 year old, and too specific to be random. Great job boys!

  • Dana

    Dana New York

    Guys you are both really good at this podcast thingy but this was terrible , I am not sure what to say but it was a really bad listen and I hope you both can pick up the effort. I know you are both very sensitive to criticism but I hope this gets better

    Guys you are both really good at this podcast thingy but this was terrible , I am not sure what to say but it was a really bad listen and I hope you both can pick up the effort. I know you are both very sensitive to criticism but I hope this gets better

  • Lisa

    Lisa Ohio

    Love you guys! I have to say every instinct I have about this leads to Creepy Santa Bill. So many red flags surrounding him. I disregard the parents or brother completely. Someone knew that child and knew that house well. I think you both were spot on that if this has been treated like a kidnapping from the start, there may have been a much better outcome. Thank you and hope you had a Merry Christmas!

    Love you guys! I have to say every instinct I have about this leads to Creepy Santa Bill. So many red flags surrounding him. I disregard the parents or brother completely. Someone knew that child and knew that house well. I think you both were spot on that if this has been treated like a kidnapping from the start, there may have been a much better outcome. Thank you and hope you had a Merry Christmas!

  • Amy

    Amy KC

    as always great job guys! i was normally in the Burke did it camp but i learned alot more about Santa Bill from listening to you guys and i am leaning towards that! ESPECIALLY since his own daughter was missing and that case was never solved. CREEPY. about the garotte- you didnt mention that it was made out of Patsy's paintbrushes. which i guess could have been within reach for an intruder but how would they know where she kept her paint stuff? the whole case is so bizzare and the cops fucked it up majorly by letting everyone in & out of the house. this probably would have been solved if they could have gotten accurate DNA

    as always great job guys! i was normally in the Burke did it camp but i learned alot more about Santa Bill from listening to you guys and i am leaning towards that! ESPECIALLY since his own daughter was missing and that case was never solved. CREEPY.
    about the garotte- you didnt mention that it was made out of Patsy's paintbrushes. which i guess could have been within reach for an intruder but how would they know where she kept her paint stuff? the whole case is so bizzare and the cops fucked it up majorly by letting everyone in & out of the house. this probably would have been solved if they could have gotten accurate DNA

  • Erin

    Erin Delaware

    I have a hard time with believing everything from John Douglas because he was hired by the family. I’m not saying he lies. I think he has done amazing work, but is it 100% unbiased with this case?

    I have a hard time with believing everything from John Douglas because he was hired by the family. I’m not saying he lies. I think he has done amazing work, but is it 100% unbiased with this case?

  • Carrie

    Carrie Colorado

    One thing I can't seem to reconcile is that since we know they couldn't see the head wound right away, how is it that when Burke was asked what he thinks happened to his sister VERY soon after the event he made a striking motion with his hand Whack Whack....

    One thing I can't seem to reconcile is that since we know they couldn't see the head wound right away, how is it that when Burke was asked what he thinks happened to his sister VERY soon after the event he made a striking motion with his hand Whack Whack....

  • Amanda

    Amanda St Louis

    These were really interesting episodes. You made me think about the evidence in different ways, I now lean against the family being involved. I so wish things had been handled by law enforcement correctly from the start. Maybe Parabon labs will be able to use the DNA evidence to find a match in the genealogy databases and we’ll finally get some answers.

    These were really interesting episodes. You made me think about the evidence in different ways, I now lean against the family being involved. I so wish things had been handled by law enforcement correctly from the start. Maybe Parabon labs will be able to use the DNA evidence to find a match in the genealogy databases and we’ll finally get some answers.

  • James

    James TX

    Typing on a phone so going to keep this short. You guys covered this case great, from all points of view and very unbiased, thanks. I feel so bad for the Ramseys. I really don't see how you can look at all the evidence and think they are involved. There's just no way that they choked their daughter with that garotte, and no way Burke did either, sorry. That alone makes me think that it was an intruder and everything else is just a distraction. You guys kind of dismissed the ransom letter as something that was intended to delay the investigation, but I kind of disagree with that. I think that the killer did intend on getting that ransom, but then something happened. My theory is that the killer was in the house while they were gone, and wrote the letter then. Jonbenet woke up hungry and went down on her own to eat some pineapples. The killer attacked her and left the letter on the stairs before taking her into the basement. He hid down there with her, and I think he intended to stay down there with her until the ransom was retrieved. Then he would emerge, get the money, tell them that Jonbenet was in basement and leave. But something happened or he realized that the police were being called, and he killed Jonbenet either on accident or to keep her quiet or out of anger and he fled. I think he was in the house for quite a while, maybe even close to when the police arrived. I think it was somebody that the Ramseys knew. Merrick makes the most sense to me as far as the known suspects, but it could be somebody who hasn't even been looked at. I could talk about this case forever. Hope one day they solve it, but doubtful. Thanks for all the effort you put into it.

    Typing on a phone so going to keep this short.

    You guys covered this case great, from all points of view and very unbiased, thanks.

    I feel so bad for the Ramseys. I really don't see how you can look at all the evidence and think they are involved. There's just no way that they choked their daughter with that garotte, and no way Burke did either, sorry. That alone makes me think that it was an intruder and everything else is just a distraction.

    You guys kind of dismissed the ransom letter as something that was intended to delay the investigation, but I kind of disagree with that. I think that the killer did intend on getting that ransom, but then something happened.

    My theory is that the killer was in the house while they were gone, and wrote the letter then. Jonbenet woke up hungry and went down on her own to eat some pineapples. The killer attacked her and left the letter on the stairs before taking her into the basement. He hid down there with her, and I think he intended to stay down there with her until the ransom was retrieved. Then he would emerge, get the money, tell them that Jonbenet was in basement and leave. But something happened or he realized that the police were being called, and he killed Jonbenet either on accident or to keep her quiet or out of anger and he fled. I think he was in the house for quite a while, maybe even close to when the police arrived.

    I think it was somebody that the Ramseys knew. Merrick makes the most sense to me as far as the known suspects, but it could be somebody who hasn't even been looked at.

    I could talk about this case forever. Hope one day they solve it, but doubtful. Thanks for all the effort you put into it.

  • Jennifer

    Jennifer Herculaneum MO

    Nic, I’m so sorry to hear about your dog..Prayers for you guys. I’m sure she was a 5 bottle caps out of 5 kind of girl ❤️ I know this isn’t about JBR but I know you read this and not all the socials..

    Nic, I’m so sorry to hear about your dog..Prayers for you guys. I’m sure she was a 5 bottle caps out of 5 kind of girl ❤️ I know this isn’t about JBR but I know you read this and not all the socials..

  • H

    H Colorado

    In my opinion, the whole point of the ransom note was to give John a reason to walk out of the house holding a large attaché, or small suitcase. The suitcase is pictured in the crime scene area of the basement. I believe JonBenet was already in the suitcase ready to go when the basement was briefly searched which is why she wasn’t seen initially, and it took John going to the basement to “find her” (unpack and position her) when he realized the gig was up because Patsy had called the police, who had arrived and coached him for a call he knew would never come. The open ended thing about watching them and possibly contacting them early for resolution if they see that John has gone to the bank early was to give John some wiggle room to leave with the suitcase when he saw an opportunity, and maybe even to explain his absence if he was gone when Patsy awoke, if she were to sleep in. This doesn’t preclude Patsy being involved entirely, but to me, it makes sense that John set himself up for success and Patsy blew his scheme with the 911 call. I think when it became evident that a police presence would be onsite continually, John realized there was no way he would be able to get her body out of the house.

    In my opinion, the whole point of the ransom note was to give John a reason to walk out of the house holding a large attaché, or small suitcase. The suitcase is pictured in the crime scene area of the basement. I believe JonBenet was already in the suitcase ready to go when the basement was briefly searched which is why she wasn’t seen initially, and it took John going to the basement to “find her” (unpack and position her) when he realized the gig was up because Patsy had called the police, who had arrived and coached him for a call he knew would never come. The open ended thing about watching them and possibly contacting them early for resolution if they see that John has gone to the bank early was to give John some wiggle room to leave with the suitcase when he saw an opportunity, and maybe even to explain his absence if he was gone when Patsy awoke, if she were to sleep in. This doesn’t preclude Patsy being involved entirely, but to me, it makes sense that John set himself up for success and Patsy blew his scheme with the 911 call. I think when it became evident that a police presence would be onsite continually, John realized there was no way he would be able to get her body out of the house.

  • RACHEL

    RACHEL O-H-I-O

    @H I said the same thing about the attache in the facebook group. It's so obvious the writer wanted John to have an excuse to leave the house with a big case and have that be justified instead of suspicious. I do however think Patty was involved. But I have made so many comments on this blog about this case that I am drifting into weirdo zone, so I wont reiterate my feelings today :) But wanted you to know I agree with you.

    @H I said the same thing about the attache in the facebook group. It's so obvious the writer wanted John to have an excuse to leave the house with a big case and have that be justified instead of suspicious. I do however think Patty was involved. But I have made so many comments on this blog about this case that I am drifting into weirdo zone, so I wont reiterate my feelings today smile But wanted you to know I agree with you.

  • joe

    joe dirt

    good job. I agree with an above post that you guys kinda biased this with the intruder theory. O well, its your podcast. Seems i keep seeing posts that Burke was a little "off". Keep in mind, mentally challenged kids abuse other kids, relationship does not matter. I worked at a maximum security mental hospital. Read about a lot of disturbing stuff in the patient case files, especially when they were young. I think it is very plausible Burke did it and parents covered it up. Or, at the least one of the 3 knows the actual truth. I think we could all agree that at least 1 of them knows what really happened, even if it was an "intruder".

    good job. I agree with an above post that you guys kinda biased this with the intruder theory. O well, its your podcast. Seems i keep seeing posts that Burke was a little "off". Keep in mind, mentally challenged kids abuse other kids, relationship does not matter. I worked at a maximum security mental hospital. Read about a lot of disturbing stuff in the patient case files, especially when they were young. I think it is very plausible Burke did it and parents covered it up. Or, at the least one of the 3 knows the actual truth. I think we could all agree that at least 1 of them knows what really happened, even if it was an "intruder".

  • Natalie

    Natalie Indiana

    This is my first time EVER listening to this podcast. I stumbled upon this podcast, and just so happens, your most recent episodes were the Ramsey case. I was immediately intrigued. I think you guys did an outstanding job with this case. You explored all theories and backed up each one. Now that I am hooked, I am going back and listening to your older episodes. I believe it was an intruder. So many strong opinions on this case, I think you guys did an excellent job!

    This is my first time EVER listening to this podcast. I stumbled upon this podcast, and just so happens, your most recent episodes were the Ramsey case. I was immediately intrigued. I think you guys did an outstanding job with this case. You explored all theories and backed up each one. Now that I am hooked, I am going back and listening to your older episodes. I believe it was an intruder. So many strong opinions on this case, I think you guys did an excellent job!

  • Rory

    Rory NT Australia

    I think the question starts to move from , who done it? to why dont we know who done it? Whoever killed her was either let into the house, or was already in the house. How and when did they leave? I think it is all about money.

    I think the question starts to move from , who done it? to why dont we know who done it?
    Whoever killed her was either let into the house, or was already in the house. How and when did they leave?
    I think it is all about money.

  • Melissa

    Melissa North Carolina

    Huge fan of the podcast, and just finished listening to this fascinating series on JonBenet. Theory: Intruder knows Ramsey’s will be out of the house at the party that night. Intruder breaks in, knowing he has plenty of time to Write the ransom note, and uses the pad and pen in the house so the note won’t be traced back to him. After finishing the note, he FOLDS it to put it in a pocket or bag, etc, to keep it while he lies in wait. That’s why the note was creased. After all, carrying three sheets of flat paper around is just too awkward., and My theory is that this was initially intended as a kidnapping. So, with the note written, he hides out until the family gets home and goes to bed. Maybe that makes it even more exciting for him, who knows. Maybe JonBenet wakes up and goes to get pineapple as a snack. That wasn’t accounted for in his plan but he’s gotta go with it. He leaves the note on the stairs and goes to the kitchen to abduct her from there. He sneaks up behind her in the kitchen and chokes her so she can’t make noise. But she makes noise and fights back. So much noise that he fears it will wake the parents. So he picks up whatever is handy and hits her in the head to knock her out. Takes her to the basement, tapes her mouth so she won’t make noise when she wakes up, and molests her. He uses the garrote again, which accounts for the second mark on her neck. She is killed this time, so no more kidnapping plan. He leaves the house without taking the note.

    Huge fan of the podcast, and just finished listening to this fascinating series on JonBenet. Theory: Intruder knows Ramsey’s will be out of the house at the party that night. Intruder breaks in, knowing he has plenty of time to Write the ransom note, and uses the pad and pen in the house so the note won’t be traced back to him. After finishing the note, he FOLDS it to put it in a pocket or bag, etc, to keep it while he lies in wait. That’s why the note was creased. After all, carrying three sheets of flat paper around is just too awkward., and My theory is that this was initially intended as a kidnapping. So, with the note written, he hides out until the family gets home and goes to bed. Maybe that makes it even more exciting for him, who knows.

    Maybe JonBenet wakes up and goes to get pineapple as a snack. That wasn’t accounted for in his plan but he’s gotta go with it. He leaves the note on the stairs and goes to the kitchen to abduct her from there. He sneaks up behind her in the kitchen and chokes her so she can’t make noise. But she makes noise and fights back. So much noise that he fears it will wake the parents. So he picks up whatever is handy and hits her in the head to knock her out. Takes her to the basement, tapes her mouth so she won’t make noise when she wakes up, and molests her. He uses the garrote again, which accounts for the second mark on her neck. She is killed this time, so no more kidnapping plan. He leaves the house without taking the note.

  • Mal

    Mal Newcastle, Australia

    Captain, you seem obsessed about the blow to the head coming second. And obsessed about the strangulation being an act of sexual gratification. It is kind of creepy.

    Captain, you seem obsessed about the blow to the head coming second. And obsessed about the strangulation being an act of sexual gratification. It is kind of creepy.

  • Tracy

    Tracy Australia

    Reading the above comments, I sometimes wonder if we are all listening to the same podcast! This is one of those polarising cases, and therefore some may critique the TCG take on JonBenet’s murder due their own strong feelings. Personally, I found it very even handed and comprehensive. Good job.

    Reading the above comments, I sometimes wonder if we are all listening to the same podcast! This is one of those polarising cases, and therefore some may critique the TCG take on JonBenet’s murder due their own strong feelings. Personally, I found it very even handed and comprehensive. Good job.

  • Alex

    Alex BC

    Nic, Cap, It has been confirmed the cause of death was a blow to the head-not asphyxiation as you mentioned . She was brain dead when the slipknot was applied, alive, but brain dead: cause of death was injury by blunt object. This is critical to understand what happened. Also, the key thing here is the ransom letter. Think about this: you are a kidnapper, you go thru the whole ordeal of planning a crime, you are in a half state of panic, you need to do your deed and get the hell out of the house, as soon as possible right? and then you go: "Oh, I didn't bring my ransom letter with me, (though I know the girl is dead) I guess I'll find myself something to write one here in the kitchen while everyone is asleep!" And then you write the "War & Peace" of ransom letters? Asking for mere change as ransom when the dad is worth millions? Who is this murderer? Willy Coyote? A Grand Jury did vote for an indictment of the parents but D.A. Alex Hunter let the parents go. I understand there are parents that would do anything to protect their families- but- the Ramsey dragged many families and people thru the mud to save face. Destroyed lives, friendships and professional careers and that is bothersome. Remember that at one point they pointed the finger at the Whites - their best friends.

    Nic, Cap,
    It has been confirmed the cause of death was a blow to the head-not asphyxiation as you mentioned . She was brain dead when the slipknot was applied, alive, but brain dead: cause of death was injury by blunt object. This is critical to understand what happened.
    Also, the key thing here is the ransom letter. Think about this: you are a kidnapper, you go thru the whole ordeal of planning a crime, you are in a half state of panic, you need to do your deed and get the hell out of the house, as soon as possible right? and then you go: "Oh, I didn't bring my ransom letter with me, (though I know the girl is dead) I guess I'll find myself something to write one here in the kitchen while everyone is asleep!" And then you write the "War & Peace" of ransom letters? Asking for mere change as ransom when the dad is worth millions? Who is this murderer? Willy Coyote?
    A Grand Jury did vote for an indictment of the parents but D.A. Alex Hunter let the parents go.
    I understand there are parents that would do anything to protect their families- but- the Ramsey dragged many families and people thru the mud to save face. Destroyed lives, friendships and professional careers and that is bothersome. Remember that at one point they pointed the finger at the Whites - their best friends.

  • Elaine

    Elaine Philly

    Thank you, guys, for a thorough and proper review of the facts. I was on the fence but now join Nic in 51% intruder. If we have learned nothing from Elizabeth Smart it is that sometimes it really is a creepy rando. (However this intruder clearly knows something about John, so not totally rando.) I wasn’t previously sold on sex abuse evidence, but now am clear on it, and also as it as the motive. Thanks, guys! Forensic genealogy will solve this (and myriad others) at some point, and I look forward to that day. The weird ransom note and use of a garrote are so unusual and really stand out from other similar cases. It makes me think this is a one-off and personal.

    Thank you, guys, for a thorough and proper review of the facts. I was on the fence but now join Nic in 51% intruder. If we have learned nothing from Elizabeth Smart it is that sometimes it really is a creepy rando. (However this intruder clearly knows something about John, so not totally rando.) I wasn’t previously sold on sex abuse evidence, but now am clear on it, and also as it as the motive. Thanks, guys! Forensic genealogy will solve this (and myriad others) at some point, and I look forward to that day. The weird ransom note and use of a garrote are so unusual and really stand out from other similar cases. It makes me think this is a one-off and personal.

  • Richard

    Richard Rhode Island

    There was an indept research/ look at this case, you guys are the first that take into consideration. Take a look at the pictures of the Ramsey's home and home INE the neighborhood. There are satanic symbols all over the Ramsey's home and homes of many of their friends/ associates ...Both Ramsey's were involved and part of a Satanic cult...much like the owner o f Proctor & Gamble ( 666) on all the packaging of his products until it was exposed. Jon Bonet was to be part of a Satanic Ritual that night that went sideways..resulting in her death! Mr. Ramsey was a military defense contractor that ( let's face it, you sell your soul in order to get those defense contracts) You have no idea how deep down the rabbit hole this will lead you and has already resulted in the death of one investigator ( podcast) and dismissal of investigation of detectives and officers of the Bolder CO, police Dept , and Mr& Mrs Ramsey's knew it. Forget about the Son. He will be an emotional collatteral damage in this horrible mess. The female officer was on the right track until she was forced to quit or end up dying. So, if your gonna truly look into this case, you to will need to except what your up against. Satan!

    There was an indept research/ look at this case, you guys are the first that take into consideration. Take a look at the pictures of the Ramsey's home and home INE the neighborhood. There are satanic symbols all over the Ramsey's home and homes of many of their friends/ associates ...Both Ramsey's were involved and part of a Satanic cult...much like the owner o f Proctor & Gamble ( 666) on all the packaging of his products until it was exposed. Jon Bonet was to be part of a Satanic Ritual that night that went sideways..resulting in her death! Mr. Ramsey was a military defense contractor that ( let's face it, you sell your soul in order to get those defense contracts) You have no idea how deep down the rabbit hole this will lead you and has already resulted in the death of one investigator ( podcast) and dismissal of investigation of detectives and officers of the Bolder CO, police Dept , and Mr& Mrs Ramsey's knew it. Forget about the Son. He will be an emotional collatteral damage in this horrible mess. The female officer was on the right track until she was forced to quit or end up dying. So, if your gonna truly look into this case, you to will need to except what your up against. Satan!

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